To expect that would-be final year degree students ought to be able to communicate?

[drcrab]

I get a call this morning from someone who purports to be a student going into her final year. She didn't ask for me, didn't tell me who she was, didn't tell me what year/programme of study she was on.... And proceeded to ask me these garbled questions. I didn't know in what context she was phoning about.

I had to interrupt her a couple of times to ask who she was, why she was ringing etc. When she finally told me who she was, I said 'oh I remember you... I approved your change of programme etcetera' to which her reply was 'oh uh yah'. No thank you.

WTF? Do these same 'students' expect to graduate with a 2:1 or higher and earn pots of money immediately? And this from a university that's rather highly ranked.

Um, ok then.

This is what happens when you let people in of the wrong class and employers don't want them anyway at the end of it so it's a bit pointless.... laughing as I type. Although you will now tell us she's bright and posh I suppose.

LRD It's perfectly possible to be rude and articulate at the same time. I can handle rudeness and give as good as I get - but there is no dealing with people who cannot string a sentence, rude or polite, together.

When DS was a child and telling me something in a way which was confusing me and him, I sometimes said "I want to hear about this, but tell me in a straight line" - which is what so many allegedly educated adults cannot do.

Andrew - I know it is. That's my point. Her academic studies will have taught her to be articulate in a fairly narrow, academic way. The fact she's not learned to be polite and articulate on the phone is most likely because she is young and her parents never taught her. It is not a cardinal sin.

I had no idea that education and manners were linked in such a fashion... or that studying at Masters level means you're socially adept.

Every day's a school day.

Or... maybe she has ADD/ADHD/Aspergers and cannot articulate herself well.

Possibly, LessonsinL, or maybe - much more probably - she can't be bothered.

But whatever the reason, it's going to do her no manner of good if she does not (or cannot) tackle it.

I didn't say it was a cardinal sin! Where did you get that idea from? Nor did I say it was a class issue. I have no idea whether she was state or public school educated either!

I guess I should have checked whether this thread should have appeared in Aibu or chat or education perhaps. Geez.

Fwiw we have incorporated 'presentation skills' in most modules so that by the time they graduated they would have had significant experience in doing presentations (talking in front of an audience, in an articulated manner (or close to!),in a logical order, about various academic subjects. They would have also had to learn teamwork, communication in groups...). I would have thought this would have gone some way in training comm skills but I guess not.

Fwiw2, I've had articulate students from all walks of life. It's not class.

*graduate

In fact, drcrab, you have done some remedial work. Nobody should have been admitted to higher education without enough skill in the spoken and written language which we share for such training to be unnecessary - but unfortunately many of them have been.

drcab - I just used that phrase to indicate I thought this was a fuss over nothing. I know you didn't say you thought it was a class issue - I was trying to explain to you you might be being prejudiced without realizing. If you don't agree or don't care, that's fair enough.

I just got a bad vibe from your title and I do think it sounds snobby. I'm not going to lose sleep if that's wrong since you did ask for opinions and that's my opinion on why YABU.

LRD snobby??? How?I thought it was factual! Bloody hell.

I know you thought it was factual.

I am trying to explain you might be being a bit unfair. That's the point.

You think it's just a fact that all educated people should have picked up by age 20 or so how to use polite phone conventions. I'm pointing out that some people don't for good reasons - maybe to do with social background.

80% of my students communicate like this regardless of class. The 20% who don't are usually those who are mature, have worked before or are the xceptionally intelligent and thoughtful ones who have reasoned that writing 'hi cd u tell me wot we r spsd to b studyin for nxt class pls thx' will not go down well with their lecturer.

They can all read full English and I make it clear that I will correct them if they don't write it. I see it as part of my job to prepare them for employment and by God, if they write like that (and speak that way, although I don't get so much input on that) they won't be getting jobs. So I make a point of stating that if they email me they should use what they might think are essay/letter conventions for language and that I will not reply to emails I cannot understand, or which are not signed by name etc.

The big problem is with the new fees regime in particular, that students will now think we are there to dance to their tune 24 hours a day and will no doubt become ruder and more demanding (and will be encouraged to do so by university school heads and admin staff desperate to get good Student Survey results), and so we will have generations already very badly served by spoonfeeding from school and parents expecting to waltz into great jobs they can't function in.

I really don't envy the young.

Thank you breaktime for taking the time to make the case so well. Yes I've now indicated in my guide (and I will say this in my first lecture) that I have certain expectations. Sorry if this doesn't go down well with some people. I guess if expectations aren't set then standards can't be attained.

I think that's a better approach drcrab. If you don't say, how can they learn? It's worked for me, anyway.

LRD well thank you for your approval! but this wasn't about approval was it? You thought I was being snobby because I apparently assumed things about this female student? Gawd.

I have informed students about appropriate and inappropriate manners of communications (written and spoken). But this time it will be written in stone (or paper!!) and I will delete and/or refuse to continue conversations that dont make sense init? Fanks xx

yes drcrab it is a massive bugbear of mine. I really think that we (I mean schools, parents, all of us) are failing to socialise the young and then we punish them for it- and the punishment starts at university, where they're expected to be able to write like we expect adults to, and most of them can't.

It's a real shame. It seems that a lot of them are educated in a bubble, just being forced to produce the required results through spoonfeeding (I don't blame teachers at all as they're under huge pressure and I'm sure most do their damnedest). We are then told to treat them as 'customers', when they absolutely aren't- they are with us to learn (in the case of my students anyway) how to be lawyers or in some related career involving clear communication (what career doesn't need that?); and we do them no favours by allowing them to talk impenetrable rubbish to us and get away with it.

Eh?

Yes, I thought you were snobby. Now you've decided to take a bit of responsibility I'm glad. You can't expect someone to learn by magic things they've never had the opportunity to learn. Instead of criticizing them for not having had those opportunities, it's better to try to help and teach them.

I am often amused or a bit shocked by my students' written communication but I wouldn't make judgements about what they 'ought' to know unless it's directly relevant to the academic course I teach.

LRD I don't think it's so much about what they 'ought' to know as opposed to what they expect/are being told they should expect versus the skills they actually have to get it.

I don't work in careers anymore but as my university's subject careers liaison officer a couple of year's ago I was routinely seeing students unable to spell the headings on their CV (capitalisation and punctuation were terrible issues for them) asking if I would give them references for mini pupillages at the bar. They are being sold an idea of massive material success (parental aspiration may have something to do with this but it can't be all of it) and lack the basic skills to get it.

Also I am afraid that this style of communication does (in my experience) tend to correlate with lower results on the course itself.

Crikey, I'm like that on the telephone. I just can't communicate verbally unless I can also see the person's face. Nothing to do with academic ability.

breaktime agree with you on everything. I had a student who graduated last year with a first who was possibly one of the most polite and engaged students. Wrote very well, attended every class, popular etc. Model student. Think he was also the first to go to uni in his family. When i first commented on his written skills he told me that his supervisor during his placement year was pedantic (my word not his) and he learned v quickly to write better, take care and put some thought into his work. I think he should thank his lucky stars that he had such a boss even if it was for 9 months or so.

Sure I will correct students' work or choose not to reply to them if written badly etc. Unfortunately not all of them will react as positively as this good student has.

break - I agree with you that there is often a correlation. But IMO that is why it is so important to be careful not to be prejudiced, to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm one of those terrible people who mis-spell things.

Student bit self-obsessed with worry over course changes, failing to get who's at the other end of the phoneline, failing to say thanks for you doing something for her in the past. ffs most students seem shocked if you want to have lunch or not be in the office 24-7, why should that shock you?

YANBU, but if this sort of thing pisses you off long enough for you to write about it on Mumsnet, you're going to get very pissed off working in HE. YABU not to just think of it as a professional hazard and turn it into a veiled attack on young people we're supposed to be helping.

'Crikey, I'm like that on the telephone. I just can't communicate verbally unless I can also see the person's face. Nothing to do with academic ability.'

My children have beautiful telephone manners. They are complimented on how unlike teenagers they sound.
In DS's case. he needed a set of stock phrases that I taught him, and that he practised, precisely because he froze if he didn't know what to say.
Now if he has an important call to make, he has a list of bullet points so that he asks things in the correct sequence so as not to muddle the listener. He's been phoning up and talking to college lecturers about his SN and possible needs for next year with clarity if not intonation yet.
The skills need teaching, by parents and family, nothing to do with class. My MIL was working class
East End, she even had a special posh telephone voice.