to think this article on time out is a load of bullocks?

[banana87]

www.awareparenting.com/timeout.htm

There is a group on Facebook who basically advocate against punishing your child. They say that putting your toddler in time out and praising him for good behaviour is teaching "conditional love". An example: "I would say that you are teaching your child conditional, rather than unconditional love. Time-outs and punishments do that. Look at how he is so quick to come to you and apologize. It's not because he knows what he did was wrong, it's because he knows he upset mommy and wants her love. Between the two, I can guarantee you that the child is worried more about losing mommies love than learning a lesson. Also, praise will teach conditional love too. When you say - "the more praise you give the more positive behavior you will see," you are showing how he can please mommy and gain her conditional love." (this in response to someone saying they use time out).

What drew my attention to this is that I had a friend who has a child DD's age (2). Friends child is/was out of control, destroying her house and other people's houses (think black coal all over my white sofa when our backs were turned , hitting or pushing my DD, taking toys off my DD, screaming if she didn't get her own way (mum always gave in), etc etc etc. Said friend never did anything in any of these situations and it all came to a head and I had to stop seeing her. She thinks its because she doesn't use time out. sigh.

Anyway, thoughts?

If a child has genuinely never had a punishment at home for bad behaviour, how do they cope when they come up against punishment for bad behaviour outside the home? For example, if they are given a detention or a punishment exercise at school, or a fine by the courts.

Like Bertie, I use a mixture of techniques - what Morloth describes as the 'What works' approach. Fwiw, I am pretty sure that setting boundaries and explaining why the child shouldn't have crossed them, would not have worked with my boys (and I freely confess to being jealous that Tortoise's dc responds so well to this).

I did find that it got harder as the boys got older - because they were out of my supervision more and could get led into bad behaviour, as happened with ds1 when a friend he was with regularly nicked sweets from the corner shop - ds1 (12) decided to have a go, and got caught. He was horrified and appalled at what he'd done, wrote a letter of apology to the shop and took it straight in - we only found out about this when we got a letter from the school (the shopkeeper had reported him to the school, as he was in uniform and on his way there when it happened). The school punished him, and so did we - I don't think we could have not punished him in that circumstance.

I do think that there is worse mischief/bad behaviour that they can get up to as they get older and are more independant, and some of these things can't be dealt with other than with a punishment, imo. Things we've had to deal with recently include coming hope at 11.15pm after going out for the afternoon with friends (ds2, 16), stealing money from my purse, riding a friend's unlicensed, untaxed motorbike in the woods (also ds2 - this incident used by him as evidence of how mature they were because they were wearing helmets and gauntlets and only riding slowly - and therefore we were being unreasonable to object to him being out until 11.15 - sigh), and utter melt-downs from ds3 (14) over such parental cruelty as insisting he walks the dog or tidies his room - he has problems with his temper, and would lose it entirely with me (swearing at me and calling me all sorts of unacceptable names) - though this is getting better now, because we cracked down on it firmly.

Reading back the last couple of paragraphs, it sounds as if I am an entirely crap mother - that's not the point I was trying to make, honest! By and large the boys are pretty good - responsible, polite to other adults, kind, and doing well at school, but even the best teenagers can completely blindside you with something you were not expecting them to do - and you have to have something in your arsenal to deal with that.

Forgot to say - to PenguinArmy - though we have used praise/rewards and punishments with the dses, they do still know, absolutely, that we love them.

We have been careful to distinguish, over the years, between them and their behaviour - if they do something bad, it is the behaviour that is bad, not the child - and they understand that we can love them and still abhor some of their behaviour.

Oh, I'm not saying people who use time out etc. don't give praise . Just that I have seen that people who without thinking things can forget to give praise/show love and without meaning too and also being seemingly normal people, not giving harsh punishments etc. this path can be accidentally taken. More a response to the people that believe parenting should be 'instinctual'. Regardless of chosen approach, parenting IMO should be thought about as it's so easy to fall into a trap.

OK - sorry for misunderstanding, Penguin.

Again, I think it depends on the temprement of the adult, the child, how many children the adult is looking after, the situation etc etc.
I can see what the writer is saying, but I have to admit I was left feeling like a crap parent after reading it.
I have been told I have the patience of a saint (polishes hallo), but my eldest dd has said that it takes a long time for me to blow (her words) much longer than my dh but when I do the shit really hits the fan. So I have to make sure that things don't get to boiling point, and when the dcs were young reasoning didn't always work.

All I can say is the world is full of idiots.

Also I think some of this comes down to motivation - we want our children to become internally motivated to behave well and do good things for their own reward, for the satisfaction of being kind or helpful or trying hard at school. Rather than that "training" approach of do this=get treat.

Even with lots of praise you can end up with children who will only behave well if they will get praised for it. If there is no adult there to reward/punish their behaviour then there is no motivation.

YANBU at all. Of course your child knows you love them if you are affectionate, spend time with them, praise them and talk to them amongst all the other things you do. I strongly believe a child needs rewards/punishments and boundaries to feel secure and know where they are. If there are no boundaries children often feel really insecure and sometimes find their freedom quite frightening.

I strongly question the ability of a two year old to understand an explanation of why they shouldn't misbehave and expect them to remember it. They need to be shown in a very simple direct manner (of course not physical/violent in any way) how their bad behaviour has consequences. Then of course I am old fashioned and this is my way of doing things.

Rita I think the way you behave and what you understand as an adult is different to that of a child. I think children who have been "trained" will then learn to become internally motivated because they will understand the rewards for hard work come from employment etc. rather that their parents. I don't think they can learn what their own reward is until you teach and show them how to do it.

I don't like punishments as a rule. I read something recently which said that in Native American culture, if someone does wrong to another, the expected response is for that person to put it right, rather than the eye for an eye so popular in Western Christian nations. That's sort of my philosophy. I can see why punishment/reward is so popular, but I just don't think it works in the long term. I struggle to see the logic in unrelated punishment, because if you examine it too closely, all it is really is revenge. You could say it is a deterrent, but if the risk of getting caught was low, I expect it wouldn't have much effect. You can see this in adult life too - many, many people happily download illegal music or films without a thought, but it's a small minority who would drive an untaxed or uninsured car around. People often speed where there are no speed cameras. I think it's so much better to teach DCs to think about why they are being asked do something, and do it for this reason, rather than "Because I'll get punished if I don't".

But - I've found that I don't have unlimited patience, and sometimes logical consequences etc do require a lot more thinking, and I have found that I have had to introduce something neutral and easy to remember to use at times when I just don't have the energy to debate and explain and reason and show constantly, because otherwise I am patient patient patient patient SNAP! And I don't want to be that parent, DP said the other day that he thinks at times DS is uncertain around me, because he has no idea when I will snap, and I was quite horrified at this, but he was right, so I've started using a time out step thing to pre-empt the snapping so I can still deal with things calmly. But I feel really sad about this, like I've failed on my own agenda.

Bertie - I don't like punishments either - but in the examples I gave in my earlier post, I didn't feel like I had a choice but to punish the dses, because of the severity of what they'd done.

I would expect a teenager or an adult to understand and think about why they have done something wrong and put it right. Of course they need other reasons to not misbehave that just the fear of getting caught.

But what I am saying is the same does not apply to small children because they cannot think with that complexity. They need to learn that what they do has consequences otherwise they don't have the self control to start applying more complex decision making as they get older.

A consequence doesn't have to be an abstract punishment though. A consequence could be having to leave where you are, or giving another child your toy because you broke theirs, or cleaning up a mess you made. Rather than - you do something wrong/something unpleasant is done to you.

I doubt anyone would argue that children should experience no consequences to their actions.

banana - I think you should stop seeing every badly-behaved child and making assumption that they are they way they are because their parents don't use the same parenting 'techniques' as you

There are many ways to bring up a nice child and not all of them require 'boundaries' and punishment.

Isn't "leaving where you are" the same as time out?

I think when you "punish" your children it is actually an act of love because you care about them.

Going back to the article that the OP was referring to it is utter nonsense to suggest your child is worried about losing mummies love and upsetting mummy. I cannot remember feeling anything like that as a child. Children need to know you are absolutely in control and that is perfectly normal.

Time-out as a technique generally involves placing a child in a designated spot for a set amount of time, until they are released and required to apologise. That's not the same as having to leave somewhere is it? I was thnking more - you can't run around in here where everyone else wants to watch a movie. Go somewhere else to run around.

i prefer togive them chocolate and tell them to go play in a riot

@ CUSTARDO

No wonder so many children are wild - they must be totally confused. I am not surprised that the schools are struggling to cope with 4 and 5 year olds who have never been told off.

Surely you are making life hard for these children when they come into contact with others and they will have to learn how to behave.

Some children are compliant naturally - others need guidance and boundaries and consequences when they act badly.

Your child is just one of many and must fit it - otherwise you will give them problems for life.

Has anyone mentioned never telling children off, or not giving them guidance, boundaries or consequences

Some people on this thread seem to believe there are just two options - punish or let them do whatever they want.

With DS time out wasn't necessary. I did just explain things to him. His behaviour was/is generally great.

My parents favoured bellowing, hitting and humiliating and I was determined not to go down that route.

However, time out is necessary with DD. She gets so agitated that it is necessary to give her 'time out' to calm down and then we can explain to her.

A child needs to understand why what they have done is wrong, that way they can make choices in future about their behaviour. If they still choose to behave inappropriately then a punishment is appropriate.

But I can see from my own two that different approaches are sometimes necessary.

banana - I think you should stop seeing every badly-behaved child and making assumption that they are they way they are because their parents don't use the same parenting 'techniques' as you

That's not what this is about. It's about what the article says and my personal experience with one person who believed every word of that article to a T, to the point that her child has NO boundaries at all. I never said that just because she doesn't use my approach to parenting her child is out of control. I said she thinks that is the case, but it is more to do with the fact that I cannot 1) expose my DD to harm each time she sees said child and 2) expose my DD to a child who is more or less out of control.

DS1 told me he liked time out the other day. He said that at first, it makes him feel angry and then he feels better at the end because it gives him time to calm down.

I think a lot of it depends on how you use it. Dumping them in the corner of shame and yelling at them is very different to asking them to take some time to think about what has just happened and talking it through afterwards (I do both though I'm not proud of the former.)

Sometimes I'm so cross I need the time they're on there to go and seethe quietly somewhere else.

I agree with Morloth about 'what works. I've come to the conclusion that I just sort of stumble through parenting and if something works and it's neither cruel nor offensive and seems to have an all round good effect on all of us and others, keep it going...