To go to the supermarket with a chicken pocked son

[innishvickallaune]

Okay, okay, this should be in Child Health or something but I kind of need to know and no one really goes over there from what I can see.

Ds is 20 months. We first noticed the pox last Wednesday but I wasn't sure that was what it was, it was a little broken blister on his shoulder. I spotted some red marks on his scalp under his hair the following day but still didn't put two and two together until Friday when he was covered in blisters. This is despite the fact that of the 75 kids on roll at his nursery, 57 have had chicken pox over the last two months so to me and my stupidity, but I didn't really recognise the signs and, quite frankly, expected that he would act vaguely ill at some point, which he hasn't.

Anyway, I'm not really sure when house arrest ends. All the blisters have burst etc but some are more scabby than others, and everything I read says "when they have crusted over". What counts as crust? Does it have to be really scabby or does it count when the blister has burst and there is a scab in the middle?

Is today day 5 (counting from Friday) or do I count from Wednesday or is it 5 days after the last new blisters (Sunday)?

Sorry. I am normally a sensible person who can read but I just can't make sense of this chicken pox malarkey. I could really do with taking a trip to the supermarket for provisions....

chicken pox infectivity: 4 days before the rash until all the lesions are scabbed (1 week) Spread: droplet spread (not touch oldmum42) Chickenpox is most common in children under 10.
complications: DIC, pneumonitis and ataxia more common in adults than children in whom the disease is mild.
reactivation causes shingles 20% (if old or immunocompromised)
hope this helps
i m not saying you will know 100% who has it or dsnt have it but once you r sure som1 is infected you should err on the side of caution and wait till all the scabs have crusted over
the guidelines r quite simple all you need is a clear head and read them thoroughly.

Innishvickallaune - this isn't going to be much help, and I apologise in advance, but the guidelines are all confused and different, and no-one seems to have a definative answer - and that does make life really difficult for parents whose children have chicken pox, as I know myself. Ds1 was incubating chickenpox when he and ds2 went to stay with some friends of ours whilst I was in labour with ds3. He had the first spot when he got home, and all three of them ended up getting it, one after the other - even poor newborn ds3, who had this 'If this is what life is supposed to be like, you can keep it' look on his face as he lay there, itching and unable to do anything about it.

My personal opinion would be to take the most conservative option - some sites will tell you the child is infectious for x number of days since the first spot - so select the longest one (I think it would be either 7 or 10 days, but can't remember - sorry) - and use that, plus the fully-crusted spots guideline. So if the longest infectious period were 7 days, and at 7 days all the spots were dry and crusty, I'd assume it was OK at that point to go out, but if you got to 7 days, and the child still had a few 'wet' spots, then stay in.

It does sound like you are close to the end of it, whatever measure you choose.

Oh - and I used to work as an operating Theatre nurse, and when I got chicken pox, I still couldn't get a definative answer from anyone about when it would be safe for me to return to work, so I decided I wasn't going to take any risks, and stayed off work for 10 days, if I remember right.

Okay... I'm going to try and make sense of this from the above

So... if OP's child had first chicken pox last Wednesday, they would have been infectious from the previous Saturday which means that as of today (taking Sunday as start, to be conservative) it is 10/11 days in total.

If all the spots are scabbed over and there are no wet spots, I think there is no reason whatsoever to stay inside.

Does anyone disagree?

Let's be realistic here. I am assuming that of the 57 kids who have had CP in the OP's nursery, not one of them sent their child into nursery with wet spots, nor will they have been allowed to come back with wet spots by the setting. And 57 out of 75 have had CP. This is what is meant by saying the disease is endemic. It is not going to stop anyone having CP for this OP to stay in. If the OP was suggesting heading out with an ill, infectious child with blisters, that would be totally U but seven days after the first spot when they all appear to have scabs? There's being cautious because there's a need and being cautious for no good reason and to be honest, I would be heading out. I think OP has been a lot more responsible than many others are..

I'd agree with you, working9while5 - it sounds like it should be OK for her to take the child out now.

I should confess that I stayed off work the longest time I was told because I hated the place, and the theatre sister and theatre manager were cows.

Health Protection Agency says that children can return to school 5 days after the onset of the rash. It has nothing to do with often quoted myth of scabs crusting over.

www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1194947358374

Of course, that won't stop the hysterical reaction that this discussion always raises here from people who think they know better, but that is the real guideline.

I'm not seeing any hysterical reaction. I do see people who worry about vulnerab le people catching cp when it COULD have maybe just maybe been avoided. My dad has waited 5 years for a transplant - if he got cp now just after having one then it would be very very bad news so yes, I am quite conservative in my advice / opinions on cp. I won't feel bad about it though.

I'm not seeing any hysterical reaction. I do see people who worry about vulnerab le people catching cp when it COULD have maybe just maybe been avoided. My dad has waited 5 years for a transplant - if he got cp now just after having one then it would be very very bad news so yes, I am quite conservative in my advice / opinions on cp. I won't feel bad about it though.

The issue is confused because people spout absolute bollocks depending on their own interpretation of how potentially damaging CP can be. Assuming that you are in the UK, the best source of advice are NHS guidelines, which are clear and unambiguous

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Chickenpox/Pages/Prevention.aspx

cant see problem with taking him - keep him in buggy or trolley - sometimes you have to - if you're single parent what are you supposed to do?

I rest my case

My dd had new spots for six days, hence the seven days from the last spoit/first spot. People do lie.

My dd had a temp of 104 and was very very unwell, you can also get chicken pox on internal organs and on the brain.

The Health Protection Agency says that children can return to school 5 days after the onset of the rash. It has nothing to do with often quoted myth of scabs crusting over.

www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1194947358374

Of course, that won't stop the hysterical reaction that this discussion always raises here from people who think they know better, but that is the real guideline.

Do I REALLY need to repeat my story to let you know how unreasonable it would be to go to the supermarket before your dc is no longer infectious?

Due to someone going to the supermarket with two toddlers that were still infectious, MY BABY DIED when I was 6 months pregnant. Look up Fetal Variecella Syndrome. I have NO natural immunity to CP, have had it 3 times now. Am I meant to NEVER leave the house, or do I expect other people to have some consideration that CP is NOT always a minor childhood illness, and can KILL unborn babies, or people undergoing chemo, or people with a compromised immune system?

OP - PLEASE don't go outside until EVERY blister is crusted over. You can do your shopping online, it's not such a hardship for a week or so. Losing your baby due to someone else's actions is something that will NEVER go away.

And I say this AS a single parent, for the person who is saying "if you're a single parent, what are you supposed to do?". You get someone else to drop the other dc at school, you do your shopping online, just as I have had to when my own dc have had CP. And as I will no doubt have to if & when DS3 catches it (he's only 6mo). Right now I would have a little boy of 2.4yo as well if not for someone else's thoughtless actions.

Bartlet - to be fair, the only person verging on sounding mildly hysterical is you with your repeated posting of exactly the same information. i can almost viualsie you jumping up and down and going a funny puce colour....

OP, if you want more info about the potential dangers of CP, you could also have a look at varicella pneumonia and varicella encephalitis. My very fit, very healthy, very 'non vulnerable' ended up in intensive care with the first. Staying indoors for approx5 or 7 days is a fairly minor inconvenience really.

Loudlass I didn't know your story and I am very, very sorry for your loss. I think the OP is geniunely looking for clear information though and I remember from when my DS had it that there are all sorts of different sources that say all sort of different things.

OP I would phone your GP surgery tomorrow morning and ask to speak to a duty doctor, they will know and will also be able to talk you through the travel implications. I hope you are cleared for your holiday.

Loudlass I am also truly sorry for your loss. As I understand it though, the OP just couldn't understand the information and it is seven days post the first spots and ten days after this person would have been infectious. The OP never suggested that they would go out if they thought that there was a risk, she was trying to figure out if she was still a risk 6 days post onset as the information was confusing.

I really do think that vaccination should be considered to prevent tragedies like yours. Until there is vaccination for CP and Shingles, CP will continue to present a serious threat to some people. Some healthy toddlers and children die. I am asthmatic, and know an asthmatic who died after getting CP asa n adult. My understanding is that the death rate has fallen substantially in countries where vaccination is the norm. Surely the cause behind these ongoing human tragedies is the government's cost-benefit analysis and not parents going out 6 days after the first spot because they think they are safe to do so? The OP is not being unreasonable to ask for information.

Vaccination doesn't work if you haven't gained natural immunity from CP when you have HAD it, so it would have been no good for me. (I asked, I was prepared to pay to have it done privately).

I didn't say the OP WBU for asking for information, I am saying she would be BU if she went out whilst her dc is still infectious.

Yes, I agree that the reason the UK doesn't routinely vaccinate against CP is a financial one, but in lieu of a vaccination programme, it is down to the individual parent to be responsible, and keep their dc indoors until the CP is no longer infectious.

Then I do think that people really do need to be given better information.

I think it would make sense to have a better definition of "crusted", with visuals etc. I understand the confusion between "crusted" and "scabbed" because of course with CP the scap gets harder and harder and then falls off, whereas initially when the blister pops it does, in fact, "crust". And because different people have different looking CP, it can be confusing.

I know what you are saying about vaccination not working e.g. it wouldn't have worked for you, but if children were routinely vaccinated would it not kill off the disease? The stats from the States seem to suggest that vaccination really impacts upon death rates. I know none of this brings back your baby, nor will bring back my friend or anyone else who has died or suffered but it does seem to me that the reason that the disease hasn't died out is unlikely to be because of people going out on day 5 or 6 or 7, when the first 5 days are the most infectious (and for four of these, people may not even be aware that they/their child has chickenpox).

I think it is a lot more complicated than people going out with infectious cases intentionally/selfishly (though I suppose this happens too). I went out when my child had chickenpox, because I just didn't recognise it. He had one spot on his cheek and I thought it was a nail mark at first, as it never blistered (or else did and burst in his sleep). Nursery didn't notice that day either, though he got more on his scalp the next day. Luckily it was fairly obvious the following day as he has very fine, blonde hair and then we followed quarantine guidelines (though I wasn't sure re: crusting/scabbing either). I am the opposite to you, Loudlass, in that my mother and father swear blind that none of us had chicken pox as children, yet we are all immune, so I suppose we must have had it on our scalps etc/mild cases. We all have very thick black hair.

To me, it seems wrong that people are put at risk because of the price of a jab that is routinely given in other countries. It is one thing that the government don't pay for it, but few people know it exists and can't make that decision for themselves. That puts people at risk, because people transmit the disease unknowingly even if they follow all the guidelines. Hence 57 out of 75 kids in the OP's nursery have CP.

GP advice is the same as bartlet ie 5 days after rash started though infectious till 6 days. similar written for travel flights ferries etc. Loudlass sorry for your loss but unfortunatly we are also exposed pre rash so you can never only tell by looking.
op you are fine to travel according to uk guidelines but each airline has their own rules