About access over our land...

[YellowDinosaur]

Cross posted to legal but higher traffic here so hoping for some advice...

We live on a new build estate in a town house on the end of a terrace of 7 similar properties. We all back onto a shared back lane that our detached garages also adjoin. We each own the portion of this back lane that is adjacent to our back gardens as well as the strip immediately in front of our garages. But access is guaranteed to the other 6 houses in the terrace to get in and out of this back lane. There is no gate accross this lane though so it might not be immediately obvious to others that this is private land. If it si relevant we are on the end of the terrace where the access point to the back lane is - the other end is blocked off by garages.

With me so far? Good.

Next to the entrance to the back lane is a detached house who has a driveway on the other side of their house. They have a wall to their back garden that adjoins this back lane and our garage / area immediately in front of our garage. They do not own or have right of access onto our shared back lane.

Recently new people bought this house and they are in the process of extending it and landscaping the garden. Today it was pointed out to me that they have put in a gate out of the back of their garden that leads into our back lane and opens onto the area immediately in front of our garage (so land belonging to dh and I). They will also have to cross 2 other neighbours land in order to get out of the back lane as well as ours.

Now dh and I are both reasonable easy going people. In principle we don't mind these people having access over our land in a way that will not impact at all on our quality of life, assuming that they too are reasonable people. And from talking to our other neighbours apparently since it has been pointed out to them that this is private land they have tried to come and speak to us but we have been out.

Our concern however is that if we were to sell in the future that if we have allowed this to go on it may affect the sale firstly because prospective buyers may decide that they don't want to allow this access and secondly because if we allow it I seem to remember there comes a point when because it has been allowed it must be able to continue.

Can anyone put me right on the legalitites of this before we go and talk to them tomorrow? In principle we don't mind but don't want to be setting any precedents that we couldn't over turn if we wished to sell and the future buyers didn't like the set up. Are we unreasonable to be worrying about this?

LOL schom.... and don't forget to set the dawgs on them. Surely your gamekeeper could see them off?

pmsl at the attack guinea pigs and hounds! We have 3 cats although one is so lazy he hardly moves, one spends most of the time hiding under the bed scared of our boys and the other is super friendly to EVERYONE so not sure they will be any good!

Dh and i have had a chat. I think what we are going to do is to go round and chat to them later. Say we have taken advice (no need for them to know that that advice is MN ) and that we have some concerns about this. Ask them what they are planning to use it for and hear their side of things. And say (unless they come up with something very compelling) that we would be willing to chat to a lawyer about it to see if we can come up with an arrangement that we are all happy with but that that would be at their expense and gives no guarantees that we would ultimately agree.

Fwiw there is an alternative way they could sort out access that would be over their own land since they have a small strip of land immediately adjacent to the entrance of this back lane that belongs to them but to do this would involve taking part of the wall down rather than fence. WHich presumably is why they did this instead!

Thanks for advice and for confirming that I am not unreasonable to be concerned about this

What worries me is that they put a gate accessing onto your property without bothering to speak to you first. So, although you are being very considerate about it all, and making them sound pretty reasonable in that they are going to come And talk to you, its worth thinking about this fact. What if you were to just point blank refuse access- which is totally your right? They might well get shitty about having paid to put the gate in. In other words, they've kind of put you in a tricky position already- you are more likely to feel pressurised into agreeing than if they had approached you before putting a gate in. Bearing in mind this is how they operate, I wouldn't trust them an inch. They may well be perfectly ok, but for your own legal protection I think you need to absolutely cover your backs and keep access totally on your terms, with the option to withdraw the right. Any agreement which is based on your property rather than you as the owners could jeopardise a future sale for you. You sound very considerate op, and a lovely neighbour, but sadly not everyone is like you and I think you need to protect your own interests here.

Toni it reminds me of a neighbour of my mum's. He very politely asked for a part of mums front garden as he was the upstairs maisonette and did have any front garden at all. Mum being a lovely lady agreed, when the said neighbour took far more than was agreed and blocked off her entrance into her own garage using her own land that he fenced off.

That was followed my months of legal wrangling, much upset and distress and a major fued. I had to spend a lot of time and effort to get the arrogant SOB off mum's land and to re-establish the garage access.

BE VERY CAREFUL!

Exactly. I have a work colleague where something similar happened. An informal agreement was made very amicably, and nobody dreamed it could turn sour- but these things can go wrong, even years down the line. I would also urge the op to not be pressurised if the neighbours seem very reasonable and nice and try to dissuade her from getting things established legally, citing cost as a reason. It can be very tempting to avoid the legal route, especially when even drawing up a standard document, writing a couple of letters and making a phone call can set you back a few hundred pounds, but don't be put off if they try that

It's been put far more officially and eloquently than I will put it, so I shall just say this:

If I were you, I wouldn't allow it.

I agree with what has already been said.
Tbh it isn't your problem how they get their bins out is it? They should have thought about that before building.
Do not feel pressurised into agreeing with them. Go down the route of "After seeking advice we have been adviced to ....(get you to sign a legal agreement) or not allow access or whatever you decide.
Good luck.

I agree that something should be put in writing to avoid any future potential problems and to protect your property. However, if they just want access to put their bins in and out and they made a genuine mistake in not knowing the land was private I would not dream of refusing permission. It's really no skin off your nose and if it becomes problematic you can always change your mind (once you have the groundwork laid)

SJ I felt much as you before posting here. However it seems that if is does be problematic in the future it might actually not be possible for us to retract our original permission.

I think we need to talk to them. They can either:

1. Pay for legal advice to get something mutually acceptable in writing (if a mutually acceptable agreement is found)

2. move the gate to open on their own land (which is possible but involves going through one of their walls so not as easy but prob cheaper than lawyers)

3. keep their bins in the garage which is on the other side of their house to this lane and they can then take them directly out onto their drive as I think the previous owners did since we have never seen their bins (and overlook this garden from our top floor)

Its not as if there is not an alternative for them and I don't want to get into a difficult position in the future. Of course when we talk to them it may not be about the bins at all but I still thinik that anything that we agree must be in writing, on the advice of a lawyer, and we must retain the ability to remove permission at a later date for any reason we choose (if we want to sell or if it is actually inconveniencing us)

The question you need to ask is 'what benefit am I going to get out of this arrangement?'.

If the answer is 'none' then why the hell would you want to take the time or risk in allowing access over your land?

They should have asked before putting the gate in - big warning sign to the kind of people they really are.

I wouldn't allow them access over your land.

There's no benefit to you, just the very real possibility of future legal issues. At best you will have to go through the hassle of getting some sort of legal document in place to protect yourself.

For me it would be a very simple, 'Sorry but no you can't do that'.

Dh's comment on reading this is that it is hard to appreciate that it isn't actually that obvious that the back lane is private land. He says he would however have checked but I am inclined to think that I may have presumed it wasn't. WHich to my mind makes them less the presumtious potentially nightmare neighbours portrayed here but still brings up the same issues.

We are trying to find all our legal documents relating to our purchase and will mull it over for a day or 2 before going to speak to them I think

If I can give some advice. When you speak to your neighbours don't be drawn into solving their problem for them. It's not up to you to think up alternatives or to discuss the relative merits of each option. That path leads to it being a shared issue - you all agree that x is the easiest / cheapest / simplest solution. Stick to the facts - it's private land, any change to ownership or use is a legal issue. Don't explain yourselves, the conversation then turns into YOU trying to convince them.

As an aside, and it's a very different situation, have you read the "what the bloody nora anre my neighbours building" here on AIBU? The OP considered herself friendly with next door and was fine about them building a gym in next door's own garden... gym now resembles a bungalow...

I don't mean to scaremonger but occassional access e.g. weekly bin collections can become bins left on your land, then rubbish not picked up after it fell out of the bin, then the pedestrian gate is turned into a vehicle gate....

In summary - what's in it for you?

Thats a really helpful post orchidee thankyou. I know I would have been inclined to go i nthere trying to sort everything out! You are right non of this is our issue and how they take their bins out is not our concern. All I am bothered about is how this will effect us and if we can't find a solution that is risk free for us (given that we have absolutely no benefit from this arrangement and possibly inconvenience) we will say no

There is no benefit to you, at all - just potential problems. And neighbour problems are hell on earth!

I can see why (also in the interests of neighbourly feeling) why you want to be seen to 'discuss' it. So I think my approach would be to meet them and suggest your option 2: move the gate - saying to them that although it means taking down a wall, you would think that actually that would be SO much cheaper for them than drawing up a legal document to allow them TEMPORARY access.

So you get to seem reasonable, but basically let it be known that you would expect them to shoulder the costs of making the access legal, and also that the only legal you'd agree to was one that allowed you to revoke if you sold or changed your minds!

Make it sound a huge hassle for them - I bet they'll take down the wall instead!

I'm going to go against the flow here and say that if all they're accessing is a back lane, that is presumably separate from your back garden, and if all they want to do is use it for is to put their bins in and out, then it's no skin off your nose to let them do it.

All these people saying "If its of no benefit to you, don't let them" - what about "If it doesn't inconvenience you in any way, let them."

Totally get your point AP but on reading through some of the experiences of others on here I am more concerned that it MAY inconvenience us. So OK thats the pessimists view but at the end of the day if we allow it (formally or informally) and it does all go pear shaped we may find we are screwed and can't do anything about it.

We've been out this pm to have a look at the gate. It actually opens about 2ft from our garage and if we formally allow access would mean we couldn't actually use the land in front of our garage to park our car. Now we don't do this at the moment because its more convenient to us to park our car to the side of our house but parking on our estate is notoriously difficult and if it became more so we don't want to be in he situation of actually not being able to use the land in front of our garage for its intended purpose! And certianly don't want to be in the position of selling our house to people with this being an issue.

Reluctantly, I think we're going to say no. Its just a question of how as we certainly don't want this to become an issue between us when they've only just moved in.

OP
just skim read
but I read planning minutes for a living
go see your conveyancing solicitor - they will still have the files.
get a wayleave / right of access agreement with financial recompense sorted out MONDAY MORNING.
It will cost you a couple of hundred now - reclaimable off them if they are found to have breached boundaries - but save tens of thousands later.
there is absolutely NO TIME TO WASTE.

was just gonna reiterate what talkinpeace2 said, you need a wayleave agreement, someone has already mentioned an easement agreement which is similar, a wayleave however ceases once property changes hands.

Both you and ALL your neighbours would haev to sing up to it.

REALLY as nice as these people sound, if they are truly reasonable then they would only be too happy to sign up.

Have they explained to you hy they have installed a gate in the first place, I could understand if it makes the trip to the local shops a bit shorter but you dont want it to be a regular means of access. The agreement must be for pedestian access only and not to park their vehicles of befroe you know it they will have visitors etc parking there.

With something like this, imagine the worst thing that could happen and imagine how it would affect you....then think of all the things you can do to prevent it. If there is nothing you can do to prevent it then inform them that you wont be allowing access.

They may think you are being mean but they are not exactly being thoughtful :)

oooh so many spelling mistakes.....few too many wines I fear :)

Think you are doing the right thing.

On whether it becomes an issue - if it does - if they are the kind of people to get arsey in this situation, then I can guarantee you that they would never have been good neighbours anyway! Honestly, they have absolutely nothing to resent - in fact, they should be grateful that you haven't taken umbrage that they went ahead and made themselves an access onto your land without even asking!

Hopefully they will be nice reasonable people (if slight chancers) and will take with good grace the perfectly reasonable suggestion that they create access from the land they actually own! - i.e. take down a bit of the wall.

Yellow, I know nothing of the legalities, but for what it's worth, I would have said no.

I've had my share of nutcase odd neighbours, and have decided to stick to existing contracts to the letter. Even if you were being optimistic after meeting them, you don't know about the future. Say they're Mr & Mrs Perfect - they might let their house out in a couple of years, at which case you might have problems with these people. If tenants ignore your complaints, you'd need to find the owners, explain about tenants, wait for info to flow back to tenants, etc etc. If you just block access, it could be awful. All the while upsetting you and your family. I hate that situation, and it can drag on for months.

This way, you can say you're really sorry, but your legal advisor felt that it might devalue your property or whatever. Or just that you're sorry, but no, as it would impact on your future options. If they're reasonable people, they'd understand, as there are other options available to them. If they're not reasonable, just as well to find this out now. Better to be straight now, but still a good neighbour, than potentially awful long-term situation later. I appreciate you could restrict their access if you felt like it later, but it would take an awful lot of grief to you to make a fuss about it then.

Thanks ladies for further helpful comments. More reassurance that we are doing the right thing even though it makes me feel unbelievably petty. Now just how to tell them...

Dont feel petty, there are just so many things which could go wrong if you allow the access:

• Your car is blocked because they leave bins out 'just for half a day an hour
• The gate damages your car
• Broken glass is left on your drive (doesnt matter if it wasnt from neighbours it would still rankle)
• Builders use the wrong gate
• Their kids start using that gate
• They want to park on your drive 'because you dont use it much' until the end of time while the builders are in.

These may seem minor things but believe me they will get on your wick.

We have a side access and I did have to shout at neighbourhood kids (who had no right to be there) to 'get orf my land'. I didnt have the slavering guinea pigs but could have threatened them with a dozy cat.

The problem is even having to tell them.

Op
Even if it is more convenient for you to park around the front from here on in I'd start trying to park in front of your garage on a semi regular (but at least every day for the next few days...) so that you can say that it is your parking spot and that you do use it, even if not every day. Would their gate swing open into your car and dent it if they opened it fully when you were parked there? One reason there for not wanting a gate there.

Must admit I'm like you, usually would try to sort things out nicely for everyone but having been stung in the past I'd now say don't think about it. Say that you're sorry but that gate causes problems where it is and that if they really want a gate then they can site it in their wall where you said they had the more expensive option of having a gate achieve the same end (and thereby satisfy your helpful problem solving instincts ). If they complain about the cost of the wasted gate installation, point out that if they had had the common courtesy to check first then you would have been able to tell them before they wasted their money, however it is now going to cost them even more as they need to restore the fence back to how it was and put a gate in the wall. If it was so close to your garage you would have thought they would have checked first regardless if what they thought of who owned the land in front of it.

Good luck and stay strong and resolute! Oh and definitely check out if you have legal cover on your house insurance and talk to them for further ammunition!