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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To bring back national service?

111 replies

Joogle · 10/08/2011 10:00

I don't mean in the military sense, more something along the lines of community work. I know in Norway they have compulsory national servicewhich does involve military service but the option of non-militray service as well.

I just feel with the recent riots something needs to be done to stop a bored generation within a doom and gloom era feeling alienated from the rest of the population and that working within their local community therefore feeling more part of it and giving them a wider sense of social responsibility could be the answer, AIBU?

OP posts:
Joogle · 10/08/2011 11:32

noddyholder - Agree!

OP posts:
Vixaxn · 10/08/2011 11:33

I knew this idea would come up. I was a community service volunteer for a few months when I was younger, helping the disabled. There were lots of options. I wouldn't be against something like this to be mandatory to become a citizen (not a subject). But it can't be the only solution, extreme poverty and lack of youth centres etc must be addressed to to make people feel part of society.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 10/08/2011 11:35

YANBU. I think there should some sort of plan for young people. If you're not in further education, an apprenticeship or employment at 16 then there should be other options. Whether that's in the community or overseas I couldn't say, but it would certainly beat the alternative of doing nothing & give young people some opportunities they might not otherwise have access to.

abeautifulbutterfly · 10/08/2011 11:42

Disclaimer: I don't live in the UK so don't know exactly what benefits there are, but:

Surely if you make continued CB/CTC after 16/17 and university entrance and JS allowance/whatever unemployment benefit is called now dependent on the adolescent attending National Service/Community Service in whatever form (military/community/trade apprenticeship/even some form of VSO) for a blanket period across society then you will have access to a fairly wide cross section of society.

And yes I do believe this period of service should be waged in some form.

I do believe there is a need for social programes in disadvantaged areas but making the recipient into a kind of eternal "client" figure with only "rights" and never any "responsibilities" then you are creating an entitlement culture. You are also creating a passivity whereby the client morphs into a kind of "patient" who is subordinate to the "doctors" of society.
Always being the recipient of programmes with no chance of/requirement for input must breed lethargy.

yes of course implementing this kind of a scheme will be expensive but prison/ these riots/ community schemes/bankers/ yes and even creating jobs are all expensive.
And surely the creation of a scheme like this would create jobs and bring experts back into their fields because you cannot let large groups of clueless young people loose on unsuspecting kids/old people/expensive army equipment/industrial equipment without large numbers of experts to support and educate them.

But there has to be a will across the more fortunate/skilled/experienced/simply older swathes of society to make it work. People upthread have said: "My kids don't need it thank you very much" and "Service personnel would not want to work alongside unskilled conscripts". But it is this kind of attitude that "it's not my problem, let someone else deal with it" that creates the stratification of society. If it was an integral part of life across the board, like preschool education, school, further education and work then there would be no stigma, no option. In every job you get school leavers, people fresh out of college/university, shirkers and somebody has to train them up, so this would be another element of that process.

And finally, yes I do realise that this is a utopian view and that the reality is much more complicated, less ideal and far harder to implement, but every project/scheme/system has to have a principle on which it is based and the nitty-gritty worked out from there.

And now watch MN eat my essay...

FreudianSlipper · 10/08/2011 12:01

what about those that are desperate to leave home as they are very unhappy there adn want to work so they are able to move out or those who need to resit their gcse's

CogitoErgoSometimes · 10/08/2011 12:04

That's why I say it should be an option if someone isn't working, in education, training for something or otherwise gainfully employed. I don't see that it should be compulsory if young people already have plans.

noddyholder · 10/08/2011 12:12

Obviously people in work would be exempt as that is the 'ideal' to have a job re takes and health issues would all have to be considered but it is like adding an extra year to education and over time would just become the norm.

FreudianSlipper · 10/08/2011 12:25

so in areas where there are more jobs available it will be easier to get out of ns, those small towns where teh manufacturing industry has closed down the young there will have no choice

squeakytoy · 10/08/2011 12:31

So what can you suggest then Freudian Slipper?

There are very few jobs for anyone, never mind those who didnt do well at school. Most of the ones who did badly at school do not want to go on to college, as they hated school so much.

What do you suggest we do for them?

Some sort of National Service would put a roof over their heads, it would provide them with skills to enable them to get on in life, and would enable them to see a bit more of the world than their own neighbourhood.

It may make them appreciate the things that we have in the UK which they would not be able to have elsewhere.

It would keep them off the streets and give them a chance that otherwise they are not going to get.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 10/08/2011 12:41

@FreudianSlipper.... the towns where industry has closed down are exactly the kinds of places where young people would benefit from a period of engaging in community work or voluntary work or whatever it turns out to be. I mentioned overseas work before as I think it's particularly important for young people to experience life outside of their immediate environment. College students can take a course in a different city. Rich kids can take a gap year. Ambitious, enterprising kids will pack a bag and relocate to get a job. The ones left behind can end up thinking that this is all there is. 'No choice'... is exactly what they are condemned to at the moment.

Joogle · 10/08/2011 12:51

Perhaps I should visit my MP and suggest it, or perhaps those of us who think it is something they should consider all should put the idea forward somehow?

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working9while5 · 10/08/2011 12:52

I think this is very interesting.

Graduates in many disciplines are being asked to do unpaid internships and volunteer work at the moment to get a foot on the ladder. A year of community work/apprenticeships or something similar is no different really. I am interested in the idea it would be for "the poor" etc and of no benefit to others.

A lot of kids do a "gap year". Most people I know who did one didn't spend their time volunteering with the poor of the developing world but boozing it up at full moon parties and having lots of wild sex. All great fun but again, it's all about "me" and how much fun and experience you can have, there's a lot of emphasis on enjoying yourself and a certain sort of decadence among many social groups. The sense of entitlement really isn't confined to any one social group. People have had an extraordinary amount in the post-war years. We all moan and whinge about one thing or another. I feel put out that I can only afford a 2 bedroom home on a "professional" salary and that I didn't take that year off to travel the world, my SIL who has a BMW and a £750K home feels put out that her mortgage is so high - we really have nothing to regret. So many people seem dissatisfied, some sort of dissatisfaction seems pretty endemic, regardless of background. Britney and Eminem, both singing the same tune - "oh I have money but I'm so loooooooooooooonely" etc.

I think many of us are take, take, take. I recently complained about my post-natal care on the back of the thread on here about it and I was outraged by the response. Yet did I offer to go an help new breastfeeding mothers? I know it's not that simplistic, there are bills to be paid, our society isn't really structured in that way, there are practical and logistical reasons I don't volunteer (my punishing 3 hour daily commute being one, for example)... but it is worth having discussions about how to promote community responsibility across all sectors of society.

noddyholder · 10/08/2011 12:53

I don't think it should be looked at as something to 'get out' of

FreudianSlipper · 10/08/2011 12:59

i would suggest more money put into the communities to help build replace industries that they no longer have. how would you like it just because where you live there are few opportunities so you have to do ns but those in better off communities where there are more jobs do not how is that fair

there are great schemes where children can go and do voluntary work abroad i would rather they do this than force them to do work here that will take away what should be jobs from others, and possibly from their own parents in particularly poor areas

Joogle · 10/08/2011 13:10

FreudianSlipper - I think money can only go so far, it also has a lot to do with attitudes. I think it's hard to be proud of something you are dealt out as a charity case.

Another option could be the NS would be part of helping to rebuild the industries?

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FreudianSlipper · 10/08/2011 13:31

but that should be a paid job, these areas have high unemployment the ns would only be used to not have to bother to pay others a proper wage so how would that help the attitude of those unemployed and too old to do ns

everyone deserves the same opportunities and we as a society should help provide them not make sure that those in more affluent areas have a better life

Pan · 10/08/2011 13:37

no compulsory attendance at Woodcraft would be much better.

Birdsgottafly · 10/08/2011 13:54

Abeautifulbutterfly- conditionality is placed on welfare benefits, many of the 'youth' who are involved in organised crime/drug dealing don't bother claiming.

No-ones going to like this, but here goes;
It would be good to 'create' jobs, but would it solve any problems if UK born people cannot get them. There have been investigation were very few local people have been taken on, when 'industries' have been created, but it was found that there wasn't a reason for that eg; they wasn't less qualified, they didn't want more money, yet employers want non UK born workers workers, why?
40% of workers in London from outside the UK (office for national statisics)
Many threads on here by employers have stated a 'lack of work ethic' (which i don't believe).

I take it also that only young people born in the UK will do NS?
I can see that causing trouble in some areas, will we say make it compulsary after the DC have lived here for so long?
Unless unemployment is tackled all across the EU, nothing is going to change.

There will have to be a new welfare benefit created to cover NS, as you cannot link it with JSA or obviously ESA, or will the offer with support extend to the disabled, if it doesn't, surely that is discriminatory?

Riveninside · 10/08/2011 14:03

Rich and poor i assume. And how will it stop looters like that 31 yo teacher?
How will it be paid for? Many parebts cant feed and support an adult child at home without some sort of income for them.

noddyholder · 10/08/2011 14:07

There should definitely be financial incentive. It is a minefield though

Pan · 10/08/2011 14:16

Stats show from Manchester, and from the Highbury Corner Court, that the vast majority of offenders are adults, and some with jobs. IN Manchester of the just over 100 peole charged only 7 are juveniles. So for Nat. Service do we have them lose their jobs and do NS at the weekend?

AbsDuCroissant · 10/08/2011 14:23

I believe they have a scheme like this in Austria; a friend from university went through it. It was compulsory service at the age of 18 (regardless of class, background etc.) and it was a choice of military of community projects, some overseas placements and some local. When they had conscription in South Africa, it was compulsory for all males, but you could delay entry if you had been accepted at university.

It can be a good experience - I had friends who have done compulsory military service; it was very tough, but freaking hell they learnt a lot while in there, and it was very good for breaking down social barriers as everyone was thrown together. For e.g. officers didn't apply to a special officers school (like Sandhurst), but instead were chosen from the rank and file soldiers purely based on merit.

AbsDuCroissant · 10/08/2011 14:24

"I take it also that only young people born in the UK will do NS?" my brother very conveniently got naturalised as a citizen (he was born in another country) just before he was of the eligible age.

Birdsgottafly · 10/08/2011 14:28

Pan- i am in Liverpool, it is the same, my DD/DD's and their friends are 15+, some have been through the care system, many unemployed (but looking/training) they are disgusted by the rioters, who are not the disadvantaged youth, they are adults, many long time working.

ThePiperAtTheGatesOfDawn · 10/08/2011 14:31

No lets just bring back the stocks and flogging and if Shami chakrabarti gets her face on tv bullshiting about criminals human rights lets ask her about ordinary peoples human rights like
the right to ask people to be quiet without being kicked to death
the right to break up a school fight without being stabbed
the right to not be chased through the streets in daylight hours by kids acting like a pack of wild dogs and murdered
the rights of single female tourists to ask for directions without being gang raped on a canal towpath and then thrown into the canal to drown
I could go on

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