To not understand why the army have not been involved in helping police during the riots.

[stickwithit]

I am confused as to why the government have chosen not to involve the Armed Forces in tackling the riots.

I am no expert but to me it seems that the police are being outnumbered in places and surely using the Armed Forces would help?

I feel that as our taxes pay for the Armed Forces they should be able to help regain control in our towns and cities. Isn't this what they do for other countries?

AIBU to think that they should be involved?

we call that phenomenon PC Rain, janitor. Nothing like a sudden downpour at club kicking out time to prevent fights.

They are far too busy fighting illegal wars. I'm sure most of them would much rather help out here, but their budgets are being cut by this government and their resources are stretched to the limit, especially with the most recent of the illegal wars (libya).

Also, there isn't really a need for them. The police should be able to handle it. Bringing in the army would be extreme and create a war like situation. Using soldiers to fight our own people would be horrific.

NiceGuy, your statement: "Plus even if we did have the soldiers, what would they do? They are trained to kill, not contain & arrest. I'm not even sure your standard squaddie will have been trained to use a baton/riot shield. That said, i wouldn't shed any tears if a few looters skulls got cracked."

Any soldier whose unit has deployed to NI, Iraq or Afghanistan (so most of them), or on MACP (prison strikes etc) have had Public Order Training. There are permanent Public Order Training Teams that do the job 24/7 (my DH ran one). I think you will find that actually squaddies are very well trained for that sort of task.

As it stands the Police do not need us, they are coping - remember not everything is reported and it makes a far better story to show the Police being overrun than it does showing the Police sending these little fuckers home.

I do agree that the powers of detention should be extended, but eventually the police are going to run out of room. They are already transferring prisoners from London jails out into the sticks - we just dont have the room for too many more.

Yes, YABVFU for not having a bloody clue what the "army" are actually doing.

LtEveDallas
There are permanent Public Order Training Teams that do the job 24/7 (my DH ran one). I think you will find that actually squaddies are very well trained for that sort of task.

Where are the teams based?

Grumpy, the one my DH ran was in NI and was used for training soldiers ready for deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Other teams specialise a little more - ie very recently a friends unit was in Norfolk completing riot training for use in an enclosed area / building - for eg a prison.

There are teams located across the country, wherever there is a training area set up for fighting in built up areas there tends to be a POTT.

The police could have handled it, much better at least, if they'd been out in force on monday night rather than a day later. I don't know why they weren't, it was quite likely there was going to be riots, and they had info suggesting there would be. Why they weren't makes me wonder.

Having a training team doesn't mean there are spare, trained, medically fit soldiers available for the job though.

Soldiers are trained for specific situations in their pre deployment training, that is why they emply Afghan people to provide the "enemy" forces in training.

Public order training is no longer conducted in the same way as it was when the marching season in NI was a huge threat to stability. Training to contain prisoners in the event of a prison officer strike is not the same as training to control hordes of youths setting fire to cars.

Source: Land Forces Standing Order 1202 dated 15/03/11

Thanks for all your responses. As I said before it isn't a pointless or stupid question to me. I am genuinely interested in this. Maybe I should already have known the answer- but I didn't, hence my post.

My family business had two windows and a large skylight smashed with bricks last night. This set off our alarm which alerted my father (keyholder) and police. Police arrived 5 min after my Dad and dispersed any trouble. We are 10 min walk out of the town centre so understandably the police can't keep an eye on businesses like ours and the city centre as they don't have the man power.

We sell high end clothing so are a target for looters. The police have backed our decision to employ a security guard to sit outside overnight and call the police at the first sign of trouble (not to intervene, just to make sure someone alerts them ASAP). Cash flow is tight so my Dad and my DP may take it in turns to keep watch. This worries me as I think they might get involved if anyone targeted our beloved shop.

I am not sure I can agree that the police are coping. They are doing a great job in many many ways but from my POV there is a danger of them being outnumbered.

However, I can now see the cons as well as the possible pros of involving the armed forces. It doesn't seem lime a straightforward decision.

Maybe I am being selfish but I still feel a bit let down that my taxes and business rates do not entitle our people, businesses and towns to protection from our armed forces.

Grumpy, I'm not sure what you are getting at. I was explaining to NiceGuy that actually his statement was incorrect, and squaddies are trained to do more than kill.

There are spare, trained, medically fit soldiers currently available. I could name 3 Regts off the top of my head right now - thats around 2000 soldiers. But I am not suggesting this as a solution, just that if the shit really does hit the fan then it is a possibility.

The POTT my husband ran had nothing to do with NI, it was just based there, the infrastructure was available, so it was used. DH trained about 10 Regts in that time, around 80000 soldiers, none of which were based in, or deployed to NI.

If we consider any soldier (I don't know about sailors and airmen sorry to the Blue friends!) who is in a regiment that is not on, just back from, or training to go on operations, the army average is approx 15% medically downgraded for various reasons.
Take out the clerks, the medics, the administrators, the lads on courses, compassionate leave, AWOL, resettlement and everything else and I can guarantee that the three regiments you could name would give you fewer than 400 blokes on the ground. Just because they are not on tour doesn't mean they are sitting around waiting to be told what to do, I'm sure you know that.

There are only just under 100,000 soldiers in the army btw, 80,000 going through POT would be ambitious to say the least.

I'm sure Nihilistic's "pointless" comment was only because there had been 5 previous threads on this very subject on Tuesday, as well as it coming up incidentally in about a further 4.

Grumpystiltskin: your figure is Army only, other ranks only. It's misleading in this context - officers would deploy too. LtEve's estimate of availability is more likely to be accurate - you can add Marines and RAF regiment into the pool for a start. Those units designated as on UK standby will not be depleted, and will be able to move at short notice.

Doesn't that mean we would be living in a Military Dictatorship?
It would be a sign that the government had completely lost control

Not a good idea

'Maybe I am being selfish but I still feel a bit let down that my taxes and business rates do not entitle our people, businesses and towns to protection from our armed forces.'

They do, but from external threat, not from the domestic civilian population. I'm a military wife, but I wouldn't want to see the Armed Forces fighting the looters on the streets as that would be undermining the police.

[this is what the guardian has to say on this issue

Grumpy, quite obviously 80,000 was a typo. I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out! That would make 8000 soldiers per Regt, lovely idea but hardly practical!

If a Regt is on Baulk or Trg year they could deploy on MACP/C. If they are on UK Resilience they could deploy on MACP/C. If they have just returned from Ops they could deploy on MACP/C (as I did 3 weeks off the plane from Iraq onto Op FRESCO, bastards!). Plus you are doing a great disservice to Clerks and Medics, they are trained just as hard and are able to do the job just as well. Oh and those Regts on Public Duties (ie changing of the guard) are always trained up for issues such as this.

Officers and Seniors are also trained. I would estimate that in an 800 Regt you could safely count on 600. If you couldn't, their CO's would have something to say about it! I am also sure you will find that those on courses screaming to come back for something like this!

But again, I'm not sure what the problem is here. We aren't being called in yet and I doubt we will be, so it's all academic really.

Herbietea, I was not aware that the military had been criticised heavily on MN (not doubting you for a second, I just haven't been on the threads where this had happened). I am sorry that this has happened and I can assure you that I have a great deal of respect for all our armed forces.

I didn't mean to cause offence and o realise MT judgement is clouded by the way the riots have affected my place of work.

I hope your DH and you have some quality time together before your op.

My dad and DP are camped out in our work car park in our car with strict instructions not to get involved in anything. They are going to call the police if trouble flares up again outside work, I just hope there will be enough of them to respond quickly.

Most of all I hope no one in any city gets hurt tonight.