to think that 'explaining the riots' and 'justifying the riots' are two different things? doing my head in...

[dreamingbohemian]

Let's be clear: NO ONE, except for idiots and criminals, is happy about the riots. No one thinks it's okay for the city to be set on fire, people's lives endangered, years of hard work destroyed, etc. They are a terrible thing and the people doing the damage should be punished.

But I do firmly believe that to keep this from happening again, we need to understand why they are happening, which means looking at social and economic factors that are driving so many people into criminality in the first place. But then people on here or in real life (Boris Johnson, sigh) say you are justifying or excusing the riots.

I honestly don't get it! Am I crazy? Do people really prefer to go around judging instead of understanding, just making up solutions and hoping they work?

I am putting this in AIBU because to me it seems so obvious that explaining is not justifying, but so many people believe differently that I am actually starting to wonder if I'm missing something.

I don't think there is anything that can be done to stop humans acting like assholes in mobs. MObs have always existed and they have always been dangerous

Lola, go on then, you've got the chance.

Alternatively, it's not that simple.

Edith, understanding the reasons could help put a stop to it, help identify where the next outbreak of violence might happen etc.

Is the [young] cohort also mostly male?

because many people of many classes are are being affected it is emulating through out society, strikes, student protests, and these riots. I dont like to make comparisons to strikes because industrial action is law abididng and should be recognised for such, but these riots looting and criminality is a symptom of a fractured society. there are and will always be opertinists too.

LineRunner, mostly but not all.

THE London riots are the inevitable consequence of a society that includes some arseholes who like to steal things instead of working, experts claimed last night.
Sociologists said the devastation across the capital was the direct result of either social exclusion and government cutbacks or some young, inner-city pricks finding a flimsy excuse to set fire to Carpetright.

As the city's often neglected underclass of dicks, twats and fuckers, let out a desperate cry of opportunist theft, Waterstones in Clapham was only spared after staff hurriedly removed the Stars of the Jeremy Kyle Show Pop-Up Book from the window.

Dr Tom Logan said: "I'm a sociologist, which means three things - I have an appalling education, I have very little money and most of the time I am unbelievably bored.

"And yet I have only a fairly small inclination to set fire to some shops while refreshing my tracksuit collection.

"You see, some people are just dicks, but sometimes even dicks like an excuse."

Rioter Martin Bishop said: "I'm not entirely sure who is to blame for me wanting to steal things and then set fire to the building where those things used to be.

"But it is nice to have the flimsy excuse. It makes me feel more mature."

Meanwhile, as former England cricket captain Alec Stewart began assembling a posse of vigilante test heroes, seismologists reported a sudden lurch to the right as people who own tagines found themselves calling for the immediate deployment of the Parachute Regiment and a couple of RAF Tornadoes.

Julian Cook, a planning consultant from Finsbury Park, said: "As long as it doesn't get too 'Bloody Sunday' I think it could teach them a valuable lesson about property rights and the rule of law."

But Dr Logan stressed that long after the fires had been extinguished debate would continue to rage over what turned these dicks into the fuckers they are.

He added: "I suspect it'll be easier if we all just agree to blame Carpetright."

YANBU

But I think a lot of people are just a bit thick.

Yes, there is a difference between "excusing" and "justifying" certainly!

When I was very young we were dead poor (young parents and all that) and had nothing but it was drilled into me at every opportunity that you treat people with respect, you don't take things that aren't yours, and you work hard if you want something better for yourself.

But every day I see parents in the same circumstances telling their little ones that you intimidate people to get respect, you take whatever you can for yourselves and damn the consequences because you're owed it, and if you try to get out from where you came from you're "getting above your raising."

So yes, I can definitely see how this sort of thing might happen.

catgirl - fucking genius!

Sadly not mine - nicked from the Daily Mash. The bit about people who own tagines did it for me :)

YANBU and are 100% right right right. It is so easy to say 'ferral little blighters should be strung up' but doesn't take us much further.

LOL @ Catgirl.

it's the people who say "they're not disenfranchised, they're just criminal" who drive me insane

disenfranchised = deprived of power, marginalised

what other word would you use to describe a young teenager who doesn't have any education or job and can't see that they ever could acheive anything?

I agree with you to a point, fluffles , but what's the solution?

There are many people who are working their asses off whose livelihood has been destroyed.

I am an ex-anarchist and (allegedly) I was part of some events back in the 80s- including the Stop the City riots. But these are very very different, at the core there is a deeply worrying disenfranchisement of young people. There is no cause that is being rebelled against. This will deeply harm London in particular. Who could watch a hardworking shopkeeper sitting crying in his car and not be moved?

So no justification for greed, arson and theft for its own sake. But there are factors here, including the closing of youth centres and the boiling boredom that happens in summer, when school is out.

Good thread OP.

Keep safe everyone.

i don't know what the solution is... but i know there's no good in labelling the looters as 'just plain greedy' or 'evil' and 'should be strung up'.

we're not going to send them all to the gas chambers, or lock them up for life. so, we have to try to understand what leads a young person to feel the need to go out and smash things and take things, rather than do something more productive with their lives....

i don't think the answer is fear, the rest of us don't hold back from looting our own communities through fear of the police, or the justice system - we don't go out looting because we care about our neighbours, we don't want 'things' we didn't earn, we'd be ashamed to be theives, we have jobs or education courses we want to hold onto, we have self-respect.

I agree with the premise of your op. Explaining and justifying ARE two different things. But the woolly thinking extends to the explanation side of the argument, as well as the hang em/flog em brigade IMVHO. It is possible still to believe that people are personally responsible for their own actions whilst understanding that there are social factors at work in creating individuals who act in such a lawless manner.

Having lived in a place where shop windows were regularly broken by pissed people coming out of pubs, you do get less tolerant of these kind of crimes even if you do have some understanding of the poverty of spirit that engenders such actions. When you are in the middle of it, it must be so hard to see past the fear and sadness such rioting brings to those who have to suffer it. Perhaps it is too close to events to have a reasonable discussion.

"It is possible still to believe that people are personally responsible for their own actions whilst understanding that there are social factors at work in creating individuals who act in such a lawless manner"

Exactly. Becuase of a majority of people are perfectly capable of understanding the socio-ecomoic factors within 10 seconds of hearing about the riots, I havent read any earth-shattering idea's. The 'excuses' are nothing we didn't consider ourseleves. However we also have the intelligence to see this is not about unemployment- look at the facts it makes no sense to keep believing it is this. Its about greed, a sense of entitlement and huge lack of respect for authority. Look at the example of the blackberry messages to understand this.

We must stop this 'pass the buck' culture. Not punishing children and finding any excuse not to hold them accountable is exactly why there are nationwide riots right now. For those who continue to deny these monsters need to be held accountable, how may I ask do you think society will get any better?

I think lack of respect is the root of the problem. These young people have no respect for themselves, for authority or for other people. Unfortunately it is an attitude that is now so ingrained in some sectors of society I don't think there is an easy solution

But Coco, who's saying they shouldn't be held accountable? They are criminals and should go to jail. I don't think anyone wants to give them a hug and say oh no, it's not your fault...

They are criminals, but personally I am interested in why so many people are criminals, and why people who are ordinarily law-abiding are jumping into this and becoming criminals too.

I guess we differ on the why -- I think it is not just individual factors like greed but societal factors as well. You think unemployment isn't a factor, I think it's a big one. Maybe we will never agree but at the least I hope you accept that talking about societal factors is not the same as saying the individual isn't accountable (at least, that's not my intention).

oh sorry, I missed the top of your post, I see you already said that last bit

YADNBU
Unless we understand the cause we will not find the solution.
I fear that approach does not fit with the current climate that seems to be developing.
Its shocking to see what is happening I feel sick to the stomach.

Trying to defend people actions on the premise they are bored or because they youth club shut is providing the perfect scapegoats. Im sorry but civilsied people dont hurt and kill others due to bordem.

Reason why this is not about unemployment:

1. As I already said the average profile of intial rioters were 14-17. How many 14 year olds are acting out because they don?t yet have full time jobs entitling them to the lifestyle they deserve? That just a ridiculous idea.

1. Why the HELL would you burn down, rob and destruct the local business who are providing employment for their community? Nonscense.

1. What the hell does unemployment got to do with breaking into OAP's houses, burning down peoples homes, mugging victims on the street and so on?

1. If it was really about displacement of wealth why attack the predominantly poorer areas of London. Why not the rich area's why pick the small corner shop?

5.The BBC has a clip of two girls stating this was about getting at 'rich people'

Finally, although many people's intial reactions must be this is fuelled from unemployment this message from rioters is the final nail in the coffin to squash such a notion;

VrIf you're down for making money, we're about to go hard in east london tonight, yes tonight!! I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. Police have taken the piss for too long and to be honest I don't know why its taken so long for us make this happen. We need a minimum of 200 hungry people. We're not broke, but who says no to free stuff. Doesn't matter if the police arrive cos we'll just chase dem out because as you've seen on the news, they are NOT ON DIS TING. Finders keepers and we all look after each other so if you see someone getting grab by feds then make sure we help stamp out that fuking PIG*. M.O.B money over bobbies =D broadcast this to everyone you know and let's get paid!! RE SEND. LONDON MESSAGE" - Blackberry messenger

So there we go. Its about greed and a sense of hatred for the police/ authority with clearly implied violence.

YANBU

and Catgirl - genuine, actual, much needed lol.