to back my Mum up over this?

[Bulmers]

My Grandmother in Germany died recently and my Mum is over there trying to sort everything out.
Although not married she'd been living with a man for about 18 years. They lived mostly in her flat but he still kept his furniture, appliances and some clothes in his own flat upstairs to hers. Due to their failing health her partner's son arranged for them to move into a new flat. The move happened while my GM was in hospital and she sadly died before ever living in the new place.
The partners son has sent my mum an email saying she owes him well over £3k! He's broken it down into moving costs (fair enough, her stuff was moved) but also for wardrobes he had made, sofa, chair, blinds etc. The costs are all halved between my GM and her partner.
Moving costs aside my Mum said she's not going to pay. The partner is still living in the flat and there's been no offer of giving my Mum the furniture they expect her to pay for.
There's a big, beautiful display cabinet of my GM's in the new place which they've not offered money for. His isn't there so I assume that's been sold.
Also, there are some items of furniture from my GM's old place that we have no idea where they went, or if they were sold. If they were, we haven't seen a penny.
There are some other small items of my GM's that seem to have gone missing too.

I fully agree that my Mum shouldn't have to pay for furniture for someone else to use and sell but am I missing something here?

Yes, GM was prepared to move. I don't think she 'wanted' to but at 87 years old, climbing stairs to 3 floors was too much for her and she knew the move would be a good thing. I think she knew there would be some expenses but if a budget was agreed I know nothing about it.

Yes she would want her partner to be happy but she never actually expected that she would die first, despite being a couple of years older than him. She would not want his happiness at the expense of my Mum though. Although she didn't have a huge amount of money she did used to quietly send my Mum money here and there to help her out. I think she'd be mortified to know that my Mum is being asked to pay thousands for something she'll never see a penny in return for, especially when her partner had more money than her and the son is loaded - the partner certainly didn't rely on my GM for financial ease.

Although she would have wanted her partner to be comfortable she never really trusted his son and daughter. To know that everything that she/my Mum paid for would then be passed onto her partner's son and daughter who would be able to sell it without giving my mum a penny would have been devastating for her. As I said, she always thought he would be the one to shuffle off first.

diddl, no it's not odd. The move was agreed to quite a while before the partner had his stroke and GM went into hospital. There was a specific date when they could move into the new place so the old leases were cancelled to expire a few weeks after the lease on the new place started. the partner was not allowed to leave hospital and go back to the old place so as soon as the new place was ready to move into he left hospital and moved in there. HE did arrange to have all GM's ornaments put out and her pictures put on the walls - he was expecting her to join him there.

It´s all very sad, isn´t it?

Although thinking about it, would this man be able to claim payment from the estate anyway?

If the family can well afford it and there isn't the money set aside then fair enough. You should still think about trying to track the will.

The move isn't strange, it is no different than facing up to needing sheltered accomodation etc, so the partner was quite justified in still moving.

It needs to be remembered that the partner will also be grieving, so he needs time as well. Your mum doesn't have to do anything immediately. He may not live long after losing your mum, as is usually the case, so don't make a rash decision.

Firstly, no they did not have a joint account. They paid most things straight down the middle.
The will is a huge bugbear - my Mum doesn't have a clue where it is. I know that she would want everything of hers to go to my Mum, and to a lesser degree, my uncle who hasn't made the effort to travel and see his mother since leaving the UK in 1973. She has said this to me. Yeah, I know - wouldn't go far in court LOL!

GM's partner always had a LOT more money than my GM. His son's last place cost about 3 to 4 times the price of an average family house in the UK and he didn't struggle to may the mortgage....

Up until now the partner's family haven't supported the couple financially but the new place was more expensive to rent than the old places. the deal was that the couple would pay so much towards the rent and the son would top it up - a gesture we did think was more than generous. I said to my Mum that if asked, I would pay for a month's rent (partner hasn't been in longer than that) but the son has asked already if my Mum has taken GM's name off the lease yet so I'm assuming they want full control/responsibility of the place.

Yes, there will be money in GM's account to cover expenses - she was always very much in control of her finances, but again, her mindset was that she would outlive him, his family would take his stuff, she'd keeps hers and that would be passed onto her own children.
No-one helped with the move from our side. GM was in hospital, Mum was in UK, I'm in the Middle East, uncle's in australia.
The partner's son found the place and set up a new lease. The move itself was done completely by a removals firm, for which our side is prepared to pay.

I don't think they can claim from the estate, there's nothing (to my knowledge) in writing saying she owes this money. If he could claim, then I would assume we could counter-claim for half of all the shared assets in that place. We're not after taking anything except GM's personal effects, and only those which have no connection with the partner. Anything he or his family have bought for her have been returned.
We are not bothered by the fact partner is using furniture and other household items bought by my GM either before they met, or out of her money only. We just don't want to have to pay for MORE furniture that she's never clapped eyes on, only for it to be passed onto the partner's family in a few years (I said myself he's not likely to last much longer, he's absolutely devastated by her death).
We are trying not to upset the partner, he's a wonderful man and GM would have died years ago had she not had him in her life. It's not him that's driving this, it's his son.
My Mum thinks that the son is expecting her to transfer the money to his account before she leaves tomorrow.

It sounds then that she agreed to pay half. She wanted your DM to inherit whatever she left as she didn't expect to die before parting with the money.
The family have helped them in practical ways and was going to be helping them practically and financially.

It doesn't really matter if their side has more money, they were not responsible for your GM, even though they were willing to help them as a couple, which was actually very decent of them.

Its up to your DM to do what she thinks is right.

She doesn't have to transfere it straight away, that is unreasonable, it is to early to make demands.

YANBU

Thanks for your viewpoints, Ladies - I've certainly got some food for thought :)

Back to the OP, your mother should do nothing as your GM may have left enough to cover it, it assumes that your mum is the sole heir, which may not be the case.

Put in a counterclaim for the furniture - the stuff the old man is still using and the stuff that has gone missing. Ensure that it adds up to a similar amount.

I don't think your mum should have to pay that much, no. Maybe a goodwill gesture toward some of it, but no way the whole bill when your DGM's stuff has disappeared/is still being used by the old man.

YANBU and I hope she manages to get this sorted without having to pay up.

Good point, diddl, I was about to say that her will, wherever it may be, would have written a long time ago, long before this move was even thought of so these expenses would not be provided for in it.

But.... I then had a thought.... although I am certain that GM would have wanted everything to go to my Mum, it is still possible that maybe there is provision in the will to pay off anything owed to her partner, in which case the family would be double-dipping.

I think my Mum has to do nothing right now, but find that bloody will!! I think if the son questions why she hasn't paid him already (my GM hasn't actually been cremated yet FFS) she should say she is waiting until the will is located and take it from there. Thoughts?

Also, she can´t transfer money from your GM´s account, so can´t do anything before she leaves.

She should tell him she is doing nothing as it isn´t her debt until she finds the will.

He´s just trying to get in quick-aren´t assets frozen for a couple of months to allow for bills to come in?

Chances are your GM will have enough put away to cover it or why would she agree to it being made & paying half?

But being heartless here, it´s pretty hard to feel that sorry for someone who has paid half for some furniture that is probably going to be theirs soon.

(And maybe already sold some stuff to get money towards it)

And who is bullying someone who´s mother has just died.

She has managed to transfer money. The bank told her that several hundred pounds a month is being transferred to the son's account which has now been stopped.
He advised my Mum to leave the account open in case of refunds. He didn't mention that he's getting money from it

I've just asked my Mum and my GM didn't dispose of any of her stuff herself - pretty much a whole flat of furniture and appliances is either in the new place or has been 'disposed of' by the partner's family, so based on that he can fucking whistle for his new furniture money.

How has she transferred money?

Was it to pay debts?

What was she paying the son for-do you know?

I'm not sure, but she has had legal access for a few years - my GM arranged it. She transferred the money to pay the son for the move and a few other things, but not the furniture.
I don't now what the money was for but I think maybe rent. It could be that GM and partner paid the son and he paid the rent. Only guesswork on my part, though.

I was thinking of power of attourney, which I think ends when the person dies.

But I suppose there are other forms of access.

I was also thinking that everything got frozen until debts were sorted out.

Well, I think it´s best as it is tbh.

It´s a terrible situation & this man sounds like a vulture!

Oh that reminds me! When my GM was in hospital he passed a message on to my Mum that he thought he should be given power of attorney as there would be money owed to him. Thank god that never happened!

OMG!

I know that if my Dad needed/wanted new furniture I´d either get money up front or not spend more than I could afford to not get back.

It´s so odd.

It sounds as if he just chose/ordered stuff himself & presented a bill!

Makes me wonder if he's selected furniture that matches his own :o

The whole thing sounds very fishy. 3k on furniture for 87 year olds?!?!

I would get your Mum to say there will be no money exchanged until the will is found and get some legal advice.

And if 3k is half the amount-I doubt what we´ve got in the whole house comes to anywhere near the full amount!

And I´m also thinking that the point is that it wasn´t necessary if they had enough between them already.

Would they really have found ut so hard to choose that they would have thought that they´d get rid of everything & start again?

They needed new beds. Everything else? shrugs

I keep thinking that I'll call her and ask her. I forget that the whole reason these questions are appearing is because she's not here any longer. :(

Yes, & throughout this I haven´t once said sorry to hear about your GM.

I'm sorry about your GM too.

I'm actually quite horrified by the son's behaviour here. He's harassing a woman grieving for her mother for money, even before the funeral. That's just inexcusable.