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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Should children be taught maths until 18?

86 replies

Mitmoo · 08/08/2011 08:04

Children should be taught maths up to the age of 18 to avert the ?educational catastrophe? of 300,000 teenagers a year failing to grasp the basics, a hard-hitting report claims.

By 16 there is a ?colossal? ten-year range in mathematical learning between students, the report by former Countdown presenter Carol Vorderman reveals.

She calls for a ?mathematics for citizenship? course to be introduced for those studying A-levels that don?t involve the subject. And she recommends splitting the maths GCSE into two qualifications, one designed for those going on to A-level.

Surely if children havent grasped the basics by 16 after 12 years of education another two isn't going to make much of a difference?

OP posts:

chopchopbusybusy · 08/08/2011 08:55

I went to school in Scotland in the 70s and we had two separate o grades. Maths was optional after the age of about 13 but arithmetic (which dealt with the practical stuff) was compulsory. I think it worked well.

AtYourCervix · 08/08/2011 08:59

what Goblin said

Riveninside · 08/08/2011 09:00

No. Why arent they being taught better maths and arithmatic earlier on. Its already failing, extending it till 18 isnt going to correct what is going wrong earlier.

bamboobutton · 08/08/2011 09:06

children need to be taught better and earlier.

also there needs to be more awareness of dyscalculia. whenever i mention it most people go 'what?????' as they have never heard of it.

Original poster

Mitmoo · 08/08/2011 09:14

She has just made a good point that primary school teachers can take many subjects, do their PGCE's and go into primary schools to teach maths but only 2% have a degree in a mathematical related subject. Perhaps each school should have a mathematics specialist teacher to bring the other teachers up to speed?

IIRC for my English Degree I needed A level equivalents in English Maths and Science but I dont know what the requirements are for other courses such as the PGCE.

OP posts:

vvviola · 08/08/2011 09:20

Numeracy is what needs to be taught, not 'maths' as such. There are people who will never need/want to learn algebra, trig etc. But everyone needs to know about compound interest, percentages, averages etc.

The issue isn't so much about learning longer (although perhaps there should be a compulsory element up to a cetain level - I don't know the A level system too well, having been educated in the Irish system where maths, English and Irish are compulsory until the day you leave school) it's about learning the basics better at an early age. It's about not needing a calculator, even if you should know how to use one, to make basic calculations, it's about being able to understand basic mathematical concepts.

mousesma · 08/08/2011 09:47

I agree that maths should be taught better earlier on but in addition practical numeracy should be taught to all 16-18 year olds who do not have a Maths GCSE of grade C and above.

wigglybeezer · 08/08/2011 09:56

I am another who did the two separate exams in Scotland in the eighties, Arithmetic O-grade and Maths O-grade. The arithmetic exam was full of questions about mortgage rates and tax rates as well as quantities of cement and average speeds on journeys etc., loads of practical stuff I use all the time! I got an A for arithmetic and a B for maths.

I am not against children doing maths until they leave school but i think that if they do not show much aptitude for abstract maths like algebra then they should focus on life skill maths.

InstantAtom · 08/08/2011 10:12

Up to 16 is long enough. If Chinese education can provide high levels of maths skills in young children maybe we have something to learn from them.

janelikesjam · 08/08/2011 11:33

compulsory maths from 5 to 18?! Ridiculous and stupid beyond belief. I mean, how many years do human beings have to sit at a desk to learn a few basic things?

AMumInScotland · 08/08/2011 11:48

I think the important thing is to get 13yo and work out what they already know / what they are capable of, and provide them with a course which will help them learn as much arithmetic/maths as they are realistically able to manage. For some students, that is maybe not even going to be the lower level of GCSE, but could be something more low-level and practical. They could then get a qualification which says they have decent basic functional maths skills, rather than one which says they scraped a pass at GCSE (or failed it).

Up here there are also "Access" maths qualifications, which are lower than Standard Grades, and I think these are used when there isn't much chance of a student getting up to Standard Grade level.

vvviola · 08/08/2011 11:48

janelikesjam I think the problem is that they are finding that the years already being spent sitting at a desk aren't sufficient - or at least that young people are coming out of of school without those 'few basic things'.

Not that making maths compulsory up to 18 is necessarily the solution (although it is compulsory up to school leaving age in Ireland, which is usually 18, and I wouldn't have called that ridiculous), but there clearly needs to be something done/changed if there is such a wide range of knowledge between pupils coming out of the same system, and if there are real problems with basic numeracy

(not saying that the Irish compulsory maths is better, by the way, we have our own issues with numeracy and literacy skills...)

monoid · 08/08/2011 12:03

I don't think that making maths compulsory up to the age of 18 is the answer - I doubt the kids who didn't do well in GCSEs would be keen to do it and it would be a waste of resources to try and keep teaching them.

I agree that primary (and secondary) teaching just isn't adequate. Children are also just taught to pass exams - but then that's often all they want. Even doing maths at uni, there was a mass of posts on the VLE asking what would be on the exams at the end of every term but at the end of the day, all that matters is the exam results and no amount of knowing extra stuff is going to help you if you don't know the material in the exam.

I think that the tier system for exams is unacceptable. My brother took the foundation level for maths at GCSE and failed, but needed a C to get onto his college course. He took a numeracy skills test at college and passed with no revision - apparently, this was equivalent to grade C or above GCSE. But it was all functional maths which is not only useful, but more instinctive and he was perfectly capable of doing it.

I have a friend from Holland and when he was at school (and I assume still now) they had 2 different secondary schools. If you were the "academic" type, then you went to one school, and if you weren't, then you went to another. They were taught exactly the same subjects, but in different ways. So they would both learn English, but in the "academic" school, they would study Shakespeare and poetry. Whereas in the other school they would learn conversational English to a much higher standard than we learn foreign languages at GCSE. And with maths, the "academic" school would be doing algebra, trigonometry etc whereas the other school would learn functional maths - how to read tables/graphs, numeracy, arithmetic and other usable things.
I'm a bit against the idea of putting children into 2 groups at such a young age, but there must be a compromise where children can learn what they need to know to go where they want to.

ButWhyIsTheGinGone · 08/08/2011 12:03

Mitmoo, I am a Primary School teacher. My degree is not maths-related, but my own maths skills are good. At school I struggled hugely with certain areas of maths, such as trig, but still got a B in GCSE as a result of doing the intermediate paper. As I know what it's like to feel a failure in Maths, I am constantly trying to find new ways of helping kids "get" a topic, including practical, hands-on lessons.

I have to say though, I set weekly tables tests which parents know about, as well as teaching tables in class, but about 50% simply do NOT improve from week to week. They do not sit down with their parents and practise. I find it's all very well saying children need to be taught better at a young age (I agree this age is key) but it needs to be re-enforced at home. It's easy as well - eg when my mum was cooknig she would always get me to weigh out the ingredients, or work out what time things would need to go in and out of the oven, etc.

ButWhyIsTheGinGone · 08/08/2011 12:06

Perhaps each school should have a mathematics specialist teacher to bring the other teachers up to speed?
I find that a bit insulting. We are talking PRIMARY level maths. The subject knowledge should be there for ALL primary teachers, as all are required to have at least a C at GCSE. What's more important is learning different ways to teach maths.

DrCoconut · 08/08/2011 12:06

It seems that being rubbish at maths is almost a badge of honour to some, you hear "oh I'm hopeless at maths" etc quite frequently. But yet those same people would never brag about being unable to read the paper or dress themself for example. Being at least functionally numerate is a life skill that should be taught well and reinforced as much as reading. Not everyone will need advanced calculus but everone should get times tables, money, percentages, areas and volumes and such. How else can you manage your budget, estimate fuel consumption for your car, understand interest rates etc? I teach maths, including access courses for H.E and it is shocking how many adults cannot add VAT to a bill or figure out how many rolls of wallpaper they need for a room.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 08/08/2011 12:12

Isn't the problem that even children achieving a respectable grade C at GCSE are still unable to understand fractions, percentages and ratios? The issue being that they can be supposedly 'good at maths' but not really understand some fundamentals. Whatever role in life you end up in, if you don't understand the basics for things like personal finance, you will struggle.

grovel · 08/08/2011 12:19

My DS (now 20 and reading Politics at a "top" university) got an A* at iGCSE Maths (supposedly harder than regular GCSE). He has forgotten (or never really understood) all the Maths he ever knew. He was struggling to compare the prices of two items the other day - one with VAT included, the other without VAT.
I think it would have been helpful if, during his A Level years, he had had a top-up lesson a week just drumming in the basics.

SiamoFottuti · 08/08/2011 12:24

Mitmoo, this is AIBU. If you aren't asking AIBU, which yet again you are not, why don't you take it elsewhere. And don't be so bloody rude to people who point this out to you.
If you have a english degree presumably you can read topic headings?

grovel · 08/08/2011 12:28

Siamo, would the OP have been OK if it had finished with "AIBU in thinking this notion is crap/spot-on?". Can't really see the problem.

Empusa · 08/08/2011 12:32

I believe it is? I thought they had to do Key Skills alongside their A-levels nowadays. Or have they phased that out already?

ZZZenAgain · 08/08/2011 12:39

How can there be a colossal age range of 10 years between pupils aged 16? Some are at age 8 level and others age 18? I don't believe that frankly.

Compulsory maths till age 18 ? No, I think that it is a dreadful idea. Actually I would find it preferable to streamline (quite drastically in fact) what has to be covered in the maths syllabus and teach that lessened load over a longer period and more thoroughly than now.

ZZZenAgain · 08/08/2011 12:40

I thought the last sentence beginning "surely...." made it quite clear where she stands wrt the AIBU-ishness of it. Don't really find it a misplaced post but maybe it could have gone in education too.

Feenie · 08/08/2011 12:42

My degree is in English Literature - I am still capable of teaching Maths extremely well up to level 6 at primary school. I don't need anyone to bring me 'up to speed', thank you!

whackamole · 08/08/2011 13:04

No, I don't.

I do think that money-managing skills should be taught in maths classes. I got a B for Maths GCSE, and can genuinely say that I have no use for most of what I learned (in the final 2 years anyway). I work in a bank now, and arguably should need to know some of these things, but the reality is, is that I don't. I can work out percentages etc but the SINE and COS wave, logerithms (spelling!) - I remember the words but not what they mean!

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