To consider doing cc with dd for the sake of ds?

[LiegeAndLief]

Am posting this in AIBU because I'm after brutally honest answers, so am bracing myself.

Dd is just 2 and has always been a rubbish sleeper. Doesn't nap at all. Never goes to sleep at night without a fight. Often wakes in the night screaming, sometimes up for 1-2 hours.

Typical bedtime: bath, milk, stories, everything calm. She has gone to sleep on her own a handful of times but generally needs someone with her, so whoever is doing bedtime goes to tuck ds in and then stays by her bed. She invariably plays up, tries to get out of bed, hits, kicks, pulls my glasses off etc, so we leave the room for a few mins. She screams blue murder. We go back in and try to comfort her. Repeat ad nauseum until she finally wears herself out and goes to sleep.

Last night ds (5) told me in tears that dd "always annoys" him at bedtime and wakes him up in the night. He has bags under his eyes and often seems tired. She also often wakes him up in the morning as she needs less sleep than him and makes a lot of noise from the second she wakes, so it's hard to get into her in time. The poor boy pretty much always goes to sleep to a background soundtrack of dd screaming, which just seems horrible.

Co-sleeping unfortunately just doesn't work for us - we do it occasionally on the really bad nights, but neither of us can sleep properly with dd.

So now I am a bit stuck. I feel so sorry for ds, and also dd really because she never has a calming bedtime, but I just don't know what to do next and the only thing I can think of is cc, which I don't really want to do (am also worried that I won't stick it out and will just make things worse). Obviously I am too sleep deprived to think straight. WWYD?

Liege, she does sound very like DS2. I wonder if the fact she is asking for milk again during the day also an indication that she is feeling a bit insecure at the moment and needs a bit of extra reassurance? Maybe some sort of big development milestone coming up? Has anything changed recently? We find the music helps DS to wind down a bit and we just lie beside him until he drifts off or I'll feed him if he wants it. It has recently got to the stage where he drags me into the room when he starts getting tired and climbs into bed while very bossily asking me to close curtains and put music on :) If he stirs, the music seems to settle him again quite quickly too - he just rolls over and goes back to sleep rather than getting up and coming looking for us.

another one recommending no cry sleep solution

In your position I think I would do some sort of cc thing. My DS is fine at bedtime, but can be a holy terrible 2 at times. I simply make sure he is safe, get on with what I'm doing, and return to him every few mins asking whether he's ready to co-operate and that I'll talk to him when he's calm (he's 26 months BTW). I don't see how your situation is that different from mine really, it's just that yours is tied up with bed time so you want to tread a little more carefully.

As soon as she starts kicking off, calmy explain that you will cuddle her when she's calm and leave the room. Go back in a minute and ask her the same questions...repeat. One thing I've found helps DS make the transition from stories with me (on the big bed) to his cot is to choose which teddy he's going to sleep with.

Would a sticker reward work for calm bedtime or is she maybe a little too young to get that?

How long has it been going on for?

I did cc with ds1 and2 , nothing else worked!

bumbleymummy, I think it might be that ds is home all the time as school hols (he has just finished reception) and bfing is something that she can use to assert herself over ds. It is probably working as he asked for some yesterday! I managed to convince him that he is too big and grown up. Otherwise, really no major changes, circumstantial or developmental, apart from gradual ongoing things like speech.

My gut instinct is that it is a power struggle rather than her being distressed. We go in and out of there all bloody evening and she thinks the getting out of bed game is hilarious. So I took a bit of bonkers' advice and decided to get a bit tougher this evening. I told her while she was calm during tucking in (just before she normally kicks off) that she must stay in bed whilst I tucked ds in, and I would come back and cuddle her to sleep, and if she got out I would shut her door. Of course she got out, I shut the door and held the handle (felt a bit awful for this ), there was some indignant screaming and then she got back into bed of her own accord, which is a first.

Anyway, so then I went in as promised as she was relatively quiet in bed and sat with her. She was singing and trying to chat to me, so I asked her if she was ready to go to sleep (NO!!) and said that I would come back and help her go to sleep when she was ready. Lots of shouting along the lines of "ME NO GO SLEEP!". Few more rounds of getting out of bed/door holding/screaming and she asked me to come in, I sat with her, she was asleep in minutes! I think we might be on the right track. Will try again tomorrow and see how it goes.

Thanks a lot for all your advice and comments, they've all been helpful and you've definitely given me the courage to be a bit tougher. Just hope I am right about power struggle..

Oh, meant to say, she does actually have a sticker chart and one of her sticker things is a good bedtime. But she only has it because ds does and she wanted one, and I don't really think she gets it that much.

Sounds like it is working then! I did something similar when DD wouldn't stay in bed for naps (at 25-26 months). I would repeatedly put her in bed until she stayed there, and then sit in her room with my back to her and return to put her back to bed if she got up. It worked (Holding her door handle just made her have terrible tantrums in her room).

Good luck, it looks like I now have 3 bad sleepers, but they do get better eventually!

I'm not sure from your post whether your children share a room or not...and whats more our solution is going to be no good if they do and you have no choice in the matter. My DS1 is 6 and DS2 is 2 and up until recently they shared a room.

We thought it would work fine and really wanted to keep our 3rd bedroom as a spare and a place for DH to work as he works from home a couple of days a week. However, it was a disaster. DS1 is a heavy sleeper but needs a night light as he is afraid of the dark and likes to go to sleep with music. DS2 on the other hand sleeps extremely lightly and has to have complete sensory shut down for him to fall asleep ( blackout blinds, no sound etc.) in fact they couldn't be more different. So we struggled on trying to stagger their bedtimes often having to sit by the side of DS2's bed until he finally went to sleep to stop him getting out and bashing DS1 over the head with something.

1 month ago DH suggested that we put them in separate rooms, it's a bit of a pain because it means I now have the computer and all his work stuff in our bedroom but boy has it made a difference. DS1 is over the moon to have his own space and although at the beginning DS2 was running between rooms this has now ceased and he goes to bed with no agro. I have to be honest and say I didn't realise how different their needs were and just assumed that what had worked with one would also work with the other. Sounds simple I know but it has really transformed our evenings ....like we have one now ;)

I think that the no cry sleep solution is excellent for babies, but two years olds need a tougher approach. Doing controlled crying with a two year old is nothing like doing controlled crying with a baby.

Babies have no concept of boundaries. Two year olds are always pushing the boundaries. Many two year olds can understand a verbal explanation. Two year olds throw tantrums very easily. Today DD screamed as her favourite t shirt was in the wash.

I suggest that you get support from your health visitor or a surestart worker. Sleep problems are tough and if its affecting the health of your son then it NEEDS to be sorted.

When I did cc ds1 was 22 months and ds2 was 20 months, I think I'd made a rod for my own back because I held them till they were asleep as babies and held their hands till they slept as they got older so they never got used to going to sleep on their own. Ds3 has always been put down before he was asleep so seems used to going to sleep on his own, he's only 5 months so this might change but at the moment he sleeps much better than his brothers did, he will very occasionally cry when he's put down and when this happens I just sit down next to him so he can see me and he stops.

reallytired - there's a no cry sleep solution for toddlers too.

How did it go last night?

Definately sounds like a power struggle to me, and also a habit. Maybe you are kind of reinforcing the problem by saying you will 'help' her, as in you are kind of saying yes, it is difficult to get to sleep. My mother would say it was naughty.

If it were me I would use a combination of reward, new pyjamas (as a surprise once you have cracked it) . I would start by talking with her all day - tonight we are going to do xxxxx, and then you will go to sleep on your own because mummy has some work to do. Then if she cries leave for 10 mins, go back no lights, no eye contact, no chat, just 'go to sleep now, mummy is working' lift into bed. and repeat! And tough love - you need to sort this out, she is old enough to understand and it isn't making your lives happier. A week of tough love, cc, and you will all feel much happier. We did cc with our two (a bit younger) took 3 nights with each and just the best thing we did! It's awful and really hard but worth it. And she'll feel happier in the end too.

"reallytired - there's a no cry sleep solution for toddlers too."

I know I have read it, the advice in it involves making sleep more inviting, rather than preventing tears. Toddlers need a good quality wind down routine. Going to bed needs to be a pleasent experience.

Certainly there are ways of minimising crying, but I think there is a true no cry sleep solution for a two year old. There is a difference between a child crying because of anger and a child crying because of fear. Its impossible to stop a two year old having a tantrum.

Elizabeth Pantsey even says in her book that you have to be 100% sure that you want a solution.

The rapid return method is appriopiate for a toddler. A verbal toddler can understand explanations.

Mrsbiscuits - sorry I didn't make it clear, they have always been in separate rooms. Dd was such a terrible sleeper we didn't dare put her in with ds! I'm sure she woudl also be trying to bash ds over the head, as it's the first place she runs to when she gets out of bed.

Well, we tried the same method tonight and there was much less crying and although she did get out of bed a few times she capitulated much faster. She also slept through all last night, which was wonderful! Fingers crossed it wasn't just a one off.

qwepoi - I think you've got a very good point. I read a book recently which was more aimed at stopping co-sleeping, but it said that if you give a child too much help to go to sleep you can make them fearful and believe that they can't do it alone. I'll see how we get on over the next few days with being tougher but sitting with her when she goes to sleep, and then think about getting her to self settle.

She speaks well in sentences and has good comprehension (sometimes better than ds ), so I'm sure she understands what we're saying about bedtime.

LiegeAndLief, you know your daughter and what is best for her. You know she is capable of being reasoned with, even if she chooses not listen.

She is not a baby, but a child and you are right to give her strong boundaries.

Thanks reallytired

Funnily enough when you tell her off she looks at you forlornly and says "me baby. Me Mummy's baby" - she knows exactly what she's doing!

In your position I would try to find somewhere like GP's or a friend to have ds for a week and then do cry it out. She is not a baby.
Step 1 . Explain what she is going to do and why
'you are getting such a big girl now and you need to sleep because you are getting very tired'.

step 2. Usual routine ensuring she doesn't need a drink, has eaten well etc.
step 3. 'Its time to go to sleep now' put her into bed, kiss and cuddle 'see you in the morning' so she knows you don't expect to see her in between.
step 4. gate on the bedroom door.
step 5. Leave her to it! If she falls alseep leave her and cover her on the floor.
or put her back into bed saying 'its sleep time night night'
3rd time don't say anything, no eye contact just put back to bed and straight out of the room. Repeat as necessary. Keep going and don't cave in as if you do then this just means she learns to try harder and will scream for longer.
It sounds like this has already happened because of repeated failed attempts.
She needs to know that you mean business and won't give in. Clear boundaries.

Good luck!

Surely the easiest and quickest solution for your son is give him ear plugs that way he wont hear her and get a good nights sleep every night leaving you to sort out your daughter.

snippy thats a good thought but having used ear plugs, even the best aviation ear defenders wouldn't block out that racket!

Oh and its probably a good idea to speak to the neighbours about what is happening incase they think she is being hurt!