Is it UR to put money before friendship?

[misty0]

This is on behalf of my OH who knows i sit next to him on the sofa reading the AIUB's every evening. He's asked me to ask you all this ..... warning: its rambling and about the building trade

Background: OH is an experienced and efficient builder (part self employed) who untill April worked for company L, under a manager named Z. OH hated Z, and fell out with him loads of times. OH was highly valued by Z and was the only one on site who Z trod on eggshells with. Z had alot of clout and hired and fired at will. Having worked on that site for a long while OH became very pally with the other builders (those who Z didnt fire after the first week), pariculally Y, who is an older man and a slower bicklayer but is a genuinely nice guy and is good with organisation/paper work ect.

Y eventually got fired by Z and burned his bridges. Shortly afterwards OH decided he'd had enough of Z and left company L in search of less stress and better money (on good terms with Z tho'. Didnt want to burn his bridges ect.)

OH and Y kept in touch, got together, found a labourer and a young brickie to join them, made up a gang and have been working together since April as a team. They are about to finish their first project together (not without its stresses) and have a new one to start on Thursday. They are friends and although going it alone is stressful they get along well.

They heard recently through the grapevine that Z has been promoted to even greater heights within company L. More clout, the power to decide on wages ect.

Now ...... the point. This evening OH has had a call from Z. Z has made him a really good job offer (back with company L) with a raise of 50% on what he was earning with them before, and what he's currently earning going it alone with Y and the gang. Plus other perks. He knows he would be looked after by Z and could be in line for a promotion back there. OH would not have to see Z every day like before if he went back, as Z is now mainly office based. So less stress, more money. Steady income.

The thing is we know that things would be almost impossible for Y if OH left. It would cost the gang the project they have just secured, and possibly any projects in the near future. Y is struggling financialy but so are we. He feels bad at leaving Y in the lurch - there's no way Z would employ Y again. That was made clear. We need the money. But OH needs to be able to sleep at night. I dont know what to say tbh.

WWYD?

Thank you for ploughing through this.

Rock and a hard place: Z is potentially unpredictable and Y sounds like a far from ideal business partner. Neither is presenting a brilliant future. I'd still be inclined to stick with Y: if he's been in trade a long time he may be able to evolve the business through a broader network. I'd see it as a great opportunity to learn about building a business. OH can always dissolve the business further down the line.

I worked for a boss like Z, different industry but same completely awful bullying management.

I was on the 'good' list for a number if years, we were good friends, worked well together, socialised together. Good times.

However it was genuinely as if she had an actual list of people to like and people to bully.

And one day all the people on her 'bully' list had left, and somehow I slipped from the good list to the bully list.

She turned, almost overnight, from being a mate to making my life a living hell. I had a breakdown, ended up in a disciplinary mire and finally left while threatening the company with lawyers letters citing constructive dismissal.

Your DH should be very wary of Z and returning to that company. If Z has treated others badly and bullying-ly then he has that streak and that disregard for professionalism in him and could at any time dump on your DH.

I'd say stick to his own gang, with people he can trust, and work on building that up, maybe formalising it as a business of their own.

I think that if he goes back to Z, then he will only have himself to blame when things go tits up.

Stay as he is.

Im using my wifes username after she showed me the post, I'm a bricklayer myself in Ayrshire , (harsh but true) look after no1, the building game is hard enough without there not being a lot of work around , then there's the winter months, if the full time job is long term and gives you a wage through the winter months , chance of promotion as well , it's plainly a no brainer !
If you can finish the project first and then take the job ,fine.
If you have to make a decision now ! Take the job .
The other guys might make the same decision , if the shoe was on the other foot.
I'm sure they would understand, cheers Alan.

Z does not sound trustworthy whereas Y sounds really nice and a great person to have as a colleague. Perhaps Z is only issuing this invitation because of what's in it for him and could easily go back to treating your OH badly. I would stick with the arrangement with Y for much greater peace of mind. Money can't buy friendship or a happy working life.

Polar - you are right! I think we have our decision. For all the points you just made.

Plus the fact that OH has pointed out that he can keep Z sweet by passing the larger jobs that come our way, and are too big for us, over to him (he does private work too on a bigger scale than us) so hopefully he and his offer will be around for a few months yet....

OH will tell Y about Zs offer, but will stick with their new little business. Hope we're doing the right thing.

Thank you for helping out everyone and thank you for not flaming me on my spelling. I know its grim.

I'll still be reading if anyone has anything else to say.

Another thing to consider is that by teaming up with Z again your OH would be effectively supporting Z's way of doing things - including his bullying approach :(

Good for you, good luck!

Lordy - laughing now as OH was very interested in jamiesmagic's post. And is now wavering. He says thank you Alan. This is exactly the point we're wrestling with.

Bathsheba - that sounds awful! Im sorry to hear you had to go through that. Bullying at work is so draining and depressing. I hope your happy in work now.

instant - Y is nice. He would hate to break the relationship.

I think this is going to be a decision without a 'right' ending. I think we've gone full circle this evening.

Could your OH not advertise for a replacement for himself in the gang. Obs it would be on a self employed bases, and that way Y could still continue with the work that has been booked ahead?

hes got to take it. I dont think loyalty should come into it when it means making a crust, however he has so far installed alot of loyalty in his current partners, but it does not sound in all honesty a great long term buisness, 3 men one as old as 55 and slow. Im afraid the work will probably dry up for them in such a competative trade in the end anyway or oh and the other worker will find it hard to carry him in the long term.

he needs to find out from z if he can finish his current project, if not talk to the other men and be honest sorry and offer to help weekends to at least make attempts to try and see they dont loose the job.

he would be foolish not to take it.

Alan here again, z obviously thinks your a good tradesman and can run the jobs yourself , he offered your wages plus half again ,quite a pay rise.
You will know yourself whether he is trustworthy !
You can go self employed again if things go wrong , but if things go wrong with the squad your with you may miss out on a good opportunity !
I've been lucky being self employed , but all it takes is one bad customer to hold money back and you could be in s-it street, I myself am looking for full time at the moment as the building trade is grim even though I'm ticking over quite well, if things change I can always fall back into self employment,
That's what you should do!
You don't want to let the other guys down , I get that , but ask them what they would do at the new rates you were offered! Cheers Alan.

I agree with Alan. Too good an opportunity to pass up. Even if Z behaves badly sounds like your man gets on well with lots of people and will be able to go self- employed again with others.

Anyway, Y sounds like a liability as a business partner (eg slow at his work, fussy about stuff, heart attack waiting to happen). Not good prospects.

Am not in building trade, but have a ruthless streak!

My father was once in a situation like this (in another industry), did the morally right thing but as a direct result ended up unemployed for 2 years, depressed, put massive strain on whole family financially and in other ways and contributed to a permanent breakdown in my mother's physical health. Which is partly why I'm a look-after-no-1 gal.

All very well treating mates well, but doesn't help you sleep at night if family finances are screwed!

Im afraid i agree with Alan too. Loyalty to your mates is one thing, but food on the table for your kids is another, especially with somewhat erratic work in this field.

I know someone who turned down a fab offer from a former employer to stick with his "mate" as they had both been laid off by a big firm, and started a little two man electrical firm. He deliberated, as you are, and eventually decided to stick with his new little company, not telling his partner that he had turned down a tempting offer from the old firm.

A couple of weeks later, his new partner dumped the business, big firm had offered him the job and he took it!

Friend eventually lost his home as he couldnt pay his mortgage, ending up in grotty rented for a while, until he got taken on by huge national DIY company.

I would be very wary of hitching my wagon to Z.

Things can all go to shit very quickly with people like that. I don't know how big the company or how pivotal Z's role in it, but would there be repercussions for your DH if Z ended up being dragged into lawsuits or getting fired himself?

I realise the appeal of a regular wage is very strong, but I think there are downsides beyond the loyalty issue to consider.

Z is likely to let him down in the future, surely?

just read your post again, the pay rise gives you more than your earning just now ! There are other perks , I take it that means company van , so less travelling costs and less maintenance on your own vehicle or you can get rid of it altogether , so more money coming in less going out !
Your a builder so you are aware that squads are prone to falling out , people let you down- especially after a night out -weathers not great- can't be bothered- someone on the squad has a good cash job to do so let's you down, you work harder than the rest and you feel a bit hard done to because your on an equal share, all these reasons are why a squad is hard to keep together, I'm not saying you can't make it work , just that in the building trade it's hard to get a good squad and run smoothly , the odds are stacked against you! I've been let down a few times and you get fed up with it!
If your paye books in , if you work overtime you get payed extra , self employed it's straight time. pricing jobs, paper work, tax returns, banking, keeping receipts, all these things take time that you don't get paid for!
You have quiet periods throughout the year not just winter , no holiday pay no sick pay , in fact no benefits I can think of spring to mind!
Self-employment not for the faint hearted.
For me the money , benefits perks, less stress and hassle, continuity of work throughout the whole year and peace of mind far outweigh the self employed option!
Let us know what you decide! Sorry if this makes it more difficult , just trying to help, cheers Alan.

Thank you so much everyone. I will show him all your posts this evening.

He's gone off to work this morning still not being sure. Its their last day on this particular site today - finishing off, clearing up ect. So i guess the new project gets started tomorrow.

Alan - you have hit every single nail on the head there about self employed building work. (By the way i do hope you find work really soon. Fingers crossed for you. Pity you dont live near Northants!) Particulally about the winter aspect of it, the hours spent pawing over construction plans at the dinning room table and adding up materials ect for a quote, only to not get the job! Or find customers change their minds saying they didnt realise how much cost was involved. The dynamics within the gang IS constantly changing too, as you say. Every day is different - lives are complicated. Blokes can just text and say they're not coming in that day/ever again, whatever. Everything always seems to be hanging by a thread. Loads of work one day - all gone bad the next. Companys pull out, money runs out, weather puts everything behind and everybody gets arsey.... Building plots you've been promised get put on hold because no one can get a mortgage to buy the bloomin things (us included ironicly!)

With Z there is steady money. If Z left/got fired from company L, OH would still have a secure job with them. Probably MORE secure without Z tbh. Z does respect OH and sees his potential for making more £. That is the basics.

However everyone who has said be wary of Z is spot on too. He plays games with people, blows hot and cold and will suddenly make threats about wages if he doesnt like the way you're wearing your high viz one day, after being pally pally for weeks! He and OH have a cycle of getting on fine, Z going all bully boy, OH arguing back, Z saying f*ck off then, OH calling him all the names under the sun to his face and getting in his van to leave, Z begging him to stay, (he actualy r a n across the site to get to OH before he drove off once )OH wavering but staying, everythings ok for another couple of months, then off they go again......sigh.

Someone said a rock and a hard place between Z an Y. Dead right. OH sets alot of store on friendship. I've a feeling he'll stay with Y. with winter coming i recon he'd be better off with Z!! I'll update on what OH has decided later tonight. Thanx again.

I think if something sounds too good to be true it usually is.I don't mean to be harsh but brickies are scrabbling about to get work at the moment, a 50% pay rise over what he was getting when times were good just doesn't add up.I think Z will get him out of the gang, so he doesn't have a 'fall back' and then shit on him from a great height!

Update.

Spiderpig, i hope you're wrong because OH told Y all about the offer Z made him last night today and the plan is to finish the project they start tomorrow, which will take just over a month if all goes to plan, and then OH will approach Z about accepting his offer.

Surprisingly Y now also wants to try to get back with compoany L if OH is going back. Dont know if Z will accept Y tho'. Also Z could make life very miserable for Y (like he did before) as he doesnt suffer slower workers. He may take him back and then do the said shitting from a great height onto Y!

Logicly Z should have learned that OH wont accept any of his crap, and will just walk away if it starts up again. With the work situation a little better round here these days Z must know if he wants OH to stay he'll have to behave.

I think OH is thinking winter months are coming and a steady job to cover us till spring comes round again would be good ..... time will tell.

sounds like he has given it some great consideration, however I would say that your OH must stay out of Y getting back in with Z. he does not want to be blamed or held responsible by either if it all goes tits up again.

We're thinking that very thing too, festi. Nothing's simple is it?!