Caught in the middle! Dad as important as Mum??

[BigHairyGruffalo]

Hi,

Not a parent myself but caught in a difficult situation between two friends that are. Bit of back story: Friend A is a single Mum to 2 dcs. The dcs are quite close in age and she has been alone since very soon after the second was born. She has coped fantastically well, she is very independent and is now very much of the ?I don?t need a man? camp. Friend B also has 2 dcs, both born within her happy, stable marriage. Friend B?s DH is a very hands-on Dad who clearly adores his kids and would do anything for them.

A few weeks ago (around Father?s Day), friends A and B were having a discussion about what they were doing at the weekend etc. Friend B mentioned that needed to buy a Father?s Day card for the children to give to their Dad, as they are too little (this sounds insensitive, but Friend A has never shown any jealousy or problems with any other Dads, and Dads are not a taboo subject between A and B). Friend A then announced that Father?s Day was rubbish as children don?t really need a Dad, he is just a nice extra. Friend B said she thought that children need both a Mum and a Dad equally (obviously beyond the breastfeeding stage where a Mum is pretty essential!).

I thought that this argument would blow over quickly, but it is still going on with more and more people getting involved and taking sides and now I am being asked for my opinion, because I don?t have children so I am seen as ?neutral?. I secretly agree with Friend B that a Dad is just as essential to a child?s upbringing as a Mum. Friend A thinks that it would be damaging for a child to be brought up without a Mum, but I see it as being equal to being brought up without a Dad. However, part of me feels that I shouldn?t say this to friend A as being a single Mum, it might make her feel bad. I don?t want to give an answer at all but I am now being pressured!

Any advice would be very much appreciated!

In order of preference:

1. • avoid being asked the question so you don't have to not answer
2. • decline to respond as you don't wish to be involved
3. • be non committal (something like "it depends on the individuals and the circumstances - being able to pass on genes doesn't automatically make you a good parent who will be a positive influence on your child's life")

However I'd use 3 as very much a last resort.

Do fuck off MsPlaced, there's a love.

Mumsnet is full of threads about poor menz and how it's not fair to ask them to do any housework if they have jobs, how it is a woman's job to make sure she doesn't get pregnant even if she wants more children, how men have to be allowed plenty of free time to pursue their hobbies while their wives never get to leave the house.

But nice to see you are still being all psychological.

Are you OK, SheCutOffTheirTales ?

Yeah, I'm fine. Just feeling about for the ignore button.

• to all those who may have experienced similar issues (or whatever they say after post-watershed isue-laden dramas)

OP i don't see why you had to come onto MN to answer this, are you doing research?

Did you have a dad? just answer based on your own experience, you were i take it brought up by humans?

Bah, I don't drink hot drinks and I'm off booze.

But thanks :)

"you were i take it brought up by humans?"

That's pretty insensitive to people who have non-human fathers.

Any sexual orientation can bring up a child on their own and do it very well. However, it is better for a child to have 2 loving parents than just one. Just as it is better for a child to have loving grandparents in their lives and loving aunts and uncles. It has been proven (don't ask me where) that a child is better off in a loving and close family.

There is research (it tends to be written academic evidence) that shows when the mother-child relationship breaks down it is more damaging than when a father-child relationship breaks down, even with everything else being equal. It is unclear wether this heavily influenced by culturial expectation, though.

TBH i never thought that i had missed out on anything by having a crap father until i witnessed the relationship between my DH and my DD's, then realised that i did, if you can provide that i don't see why you wouldn't.

I don't think that anyone would argue that the more positive relationships that you have in your life the better, regardless of the gender providing them.

Birdsgottafly - I see what you're saying re. academic research, but glad you included bit about cultural expectation. There's little worse that 'thou shalt be damaged' theories, especially when they're 'supported' by 'evidence', IMO. And OP I think it's those sorts of 'theories' that are a bit about your friends' argument. Probably best not to get involved, but if you do, maybe ask what they hope to gain by it?

I would just ignore the argument and say 'it takes a village to raise a DC'. The more people the better, therefore two parents are better than one, even better to have the addition of grandparents, uncles, aunts, godparents, family friends, neighbours etc.etc Anyone trying to make an exclusive relationship is very insecure IMO.

Too many variables for there to be a real answer as to what is better.

Speaking only about my family, I am finding that in the early years I was more important to DS1 than DH, now however he is 7 and he is learning how to be a man and he is learning that from DH, that is not something I can teach him. Watching them together is an amazing thing.

DS2 is very much 'mine' at the moment while DS1 is off with his dad a lot more. But this sort of thing could be obtained from outside the immediate family unit.

Just stay out of it, refuse to engage on the subject with either side, it won't end well for you no matter what you say, so don't say anything.

I sometimes think it depends on the circumstances. 2 boys in Dd's class don't have their mum's in their lives as one chose to walk away, and the other mum sadly passed away just before his first birthday. Yet both their dad's are very hands on dad's who go on school trips and are fantastic parents with the support of extended family.

Effectively it's down to your personal circumstances and how best you work to your circumstances.

to the OP.... if pressed for an answer, reply that children can never have too much love. Leave it at that.

I think that is a great answer Cognito-very true and you don't need to add anything or get drawn in further.

I think it is a very worrying trend that people see having a father as just a bonus in their childs life.
Nothing is ever certain in life but in an ideal world a child should have both a loving and supportive mother and father who both love, care for and nurture that child to adulthood.
Most single parents do a great job and my own mother was a single parent and that was back in the days when divorce still carried a stigma.

I think it is very much about individual families. If you had a crap mum and a caring dad, then the dad would be the most important person in your life. If vice versa, then vice versa.

But cultural expectations do matter- it never ceases to surprise me, coming from abroad, how many British women speak of men as basically clueless around children. Nor how many men are clueless around children, clearly because they can get away with it. I never heard that when I grew up, even my dad's generation were into nappy changing and that's nearly 50 years ago. Of course there were useless men around- but they got judged! In pretty much the same way as a useless mother would get judged.

I think the current figures suggest that 17 per cent of children are raised by single mums. Is that good or bad?

I think the current figures suggest that 17 per cent of children are raised by single mums. Is that good or bad?

I agree with PP and stay out of it. Every situation is individual.

Having said that I clicked on this thread because I'm currently expecting DC1. DH is convinced that I am and I will be more important to future DS. He isn't sad about this or feeling sorry for himself, just states it as fact which I find very

This is because his mum was a single mum (she brought him up wonderfully) and his dad wasn't around much. I'm trying to convince him he'll be just as loved as needed as I will be and that I, who was brought up with 2 loving parents, could never choose between the 2 of them.

I'm not sure how much I'm suceeding though, so I really hope that after the birth he'll realise that DS will love both of us as much, even if we provide different things and have different relationships.

trailing ishoos from thread to thread is very bad form, Tails. Haven't you read your netiquette guide?

Oh, that's rather sad, Bart, but I think your dh will feel rather differently once he's looking at a real live baby he can see and touch and hear, rather than the potential baby who isn't born yet and only exists physically for you. And it's a kind of happy/sad tribute to his Mum and wound from his Dad, really.

Hope everything goes extremely well with the rest of your pregnancy, the birth and the aftermath.

It's a complicated argument. My dad died when I was very young so obviously I grew up without him. I got a step dad who was and still is a constant figure in my life when I was 14. I was a single mum at 22 after a disastrous relationship. Who knows if it would have happened anyway or if my formative years with no dad affected it. My now DH has a very stable still together mum and dad and has had no relationship crises at all. Again is it coincidence or example? I don't think DS1 has been harmed by me being on my own at first but it is better now with a good dad/step dad in the boys' lives. Seeing DH on the day that DS2 was born and how he has been since just showed me all that was wrong with my first time round and my ex. I would also say better a single parent than a bad relationship together for the kids or whatever.