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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Home births are irresponsible

373 replies

LadyShapes · 14/07/2011 09:05

Did anyone see the start of Lorraine at about 8.30? They were talking about what's in the news and one of the stories was about how more women should have home births. The delighful guest they had on to talk about it said that she thought home births were irresponsible and dangerous. She also said she thought natural births were a load of rubbish and she just wanted to be in hospital and have medical intervention (paraphrasing). Oh and she wouldn't have a home birth because she has cream carpets. The other guest just agreed with her, so the that was the extent of the discussion.

Is it me? AIBU to think they shouldn't discuss news stories unless the guests have some kind of informed opinion (I mean, all the infomation I have had from my midwife tells me about the benefits of home births and a natural birth as well as the risks), or they should have read more than just the headline. Or AIBU to be watching Lorraine and hoping for some kind of balanced discussion.

OP posts:
fastweb · 14/07/2011 13:30

HBs are the norm in Holland - I can't imagine the entire country are BU?

Yeah, but from the sounds of things the number of HBs could be dropping there in the future and there may be good reason for that.

skepticalob.blogspot.com/2010/07/netherlands-homebirth-and-high.html

Excerpt

The Netherlands has one the highest perinatal death rate in Europe and a high and rising rate of maternal mortality. Indeed, the Dutch have become so alarmed at the perinatal and neonatal death rates that the government has convened a variety of investigations to determine the cause

NB I have no dog in the hunt. I gave birth once and have no intension to repeat the experience. I was born at home and appear to have been utterly unscathed by that experience. I don't mind how other people give birth. Would rather no single flavour became de rigure, to allow for range of preferences.

LieInsAreRarerThanTigers · 14/07/2011 13:46

And by the way, midwives attending homebirths carry oxygen and are fully trained in rescusitation - even a baby born with breathing difficulties etc doesn't necessarily need a hospital!

spudulika · 14/07/2011 13:57

"The Netherlands has one the highest perinatal death rate in Europe and a high and rising rate of maternal mortality. Indeed, the Dutch have become so alarmed at the perinatal and neonatal death rates that the government has convened a variety of investigations to determine the cause"

And the response to that study (casting doubts on the methodology):

"Too early to question effectiveness of Dutch maternity care system
Ank De Jonge, senior midwife researcher Ben Willem Mol, Birgit Y Van der Goes, Jan G Nijhuis, Joris A Van der Post, Simone E Buitendijk
Midwifery Science, AVAG and the EMGO Institute for Health and Care Research, VU University Medical C

With interest we read the study from Evers et al. on perinatal mortality and morbidity in the Utrecht region, one of the 12 provinces in the Netherlands. This is the first study ever to show a higher mortality rate among births that started in primary care compared with secondary care. We have concerns about the methods used.

First, although the title suggests that this is a prospective cohort study, the entire population at risk has been defined retrospectively and was based on postal codes of the catchment area of one university hospital. All intrapartum and neonatal deaths were included from hospitals and midwifery practices within this area, but potentially not all births. Midwives in practices at the periphery of the catchment area will also care for many women in neighbouring regions. These births have not been included in the study, unless the baby died. This will artificially inflate mortality rates in midwifery practices.

Second, the study was conducted in only one region in the Netherlands. The intrapartum and neonatal mortality rate was twice as high as in recent national studies among women in primary care at the onset of labour (1.39 versus 0.65 and 0.52 per 1000)1;2. Although classification bias and underreporting may have played a role in these retrospective studies, it is unlikely that half of all deaths would have been missed. In another prospective study of perinatal mortality cases only 3.5% additional cases were found as compared to national registration data 3.

Strikingly, in Evers' study 67% of all babies that died during labour were born in primary care. This means that either the midwife noticed fetal distress too late to refer a woman because the birth was imminent or a deceased baby was born so fast that the midwife arrived too late to a woman's home. It is very surprising that these situations were much more common than referral before birth. In Amelink's national study, only 5% of intrapartum deaths were among births that took place in primary care 1. This discrepancy suggests that the study sample may be rather different from the national population.

Given the limitations of the study, the conclusion that labour starting in primary care carries a higher risk of delivery related perinatal death compared to labour starting in secondary care is premature from a scientific point of view. The authors correctly state that "their findings are unexpected and deserve further evaluation". Previous audit studies did not find that features of the Dutch maternity care system were related to preventable perinatal deaths 3;4. The results of Evers' study call for an urgent review of all mortality cases in the audit study announced by the authors. In addition, perinatal outcomes in other regions need to be examined. Ideally, a large national prospective cohort study should be conducted. The suggestion that "the obstetric care system in the Netherlands possibly contributes to the high perinatal mortality rate" can not be made based on these data alone.

(1) Amelink-Verburg MP, Verloove-Vanhorick SP, Hakkenberg RM, Veldhuijzen IM, Bennebroek GJ, Buitendijk SE. Evaluation of 280,000 cases in Dutch midwifery practices: a descriptive study. BJOG 2008; 115(5):570- 578.

(2) De Jonge A, Van der Goes BY, Ravelli AC, Amelink-Verburg MP, Mol BW, Nijhuis JG et al. Perinatal mortality and morbidity in a nationwide cohort of 529,688 low-risk planned home and hospital births. BJOG 2009; 116(9):1177-1184.

(3) Wolleswinkel-van den Bosch JH, Vredevoogd CB, Borkent-Polet M, van EJ, Fetter WP, Lagro-Janssen TL et al. Substandard factors in perinatal care in The Netherlands: a regional audit of perinatal deaths. Acta Obstet Gynecol Scand 2002; 81(1):17-24.

(4) Bais JM, Eskes M, Bonsel GJ. [The determinants of the high Dutch perinatal mortality in a complete regional cohort, 1990-1994]. Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd 2004; 148(38):1873-1878.

Competing interests: None declared

Also - this article:

here

Orbinator · 14/07/2011 14:20

Right, rant time:
Doctors have wanted us in beds on our backs drugged up to the eyeballs since the 70's (Peel I think?). It is easier for THEM, not the woman, if they have us where they can see everything. Women naturally birth squatting or standing - the pelvis can open 30% more than lying on your back. You are also at higher risk of tearing on your back than any other position.

If anyone has recently watched OBEM USA you may have been as shocked as me at the amount of drugs pumped through both mother and therefore baby - so much that many baby's can't cry immediately after birth. Women are not allowed to move around and are wheeled in for C sections at the drop of a hat. Many mothers do not seem to be aware of what effects the drugs may have or how C section is actually a major surgery. Nurses are verging on rude and procedures are so medicated and clinical that it is not surprising many fear a less structured method of birth where they actually have to push for themselves, for example. It is simply not the done thing over there. If anyone saw what the woman with the epidural that only numbed half of her body before having numerous failed v-bac attacks on her baby you may think twice about how necessary all of that intervention was. If she had been able to feel herself push that baby may not have needed v-bac. If she had been allowed to walk around before the epidural the baby would possibly have turned into place naturally. However she wasn't given that option to even try!

I can only assume this is because of the huge amounts of money being made from the pharmaceutical companies being paid for all of the invasive surgeries and drugs per birth. If people really want us to go down this route then the NHS will be struggling even further beyond it's means and we will end up with a privatised system like US. It will be interesting to see how many drugs the average woman will want to cough up for then...Hmm

LieInsAreRarerThanTigers · 14/07/2011 14:34

Orbinator did you mean ventouse?

Orbinator · 14/07/2011 14:35

Sorry Blush yes, ventouse
Pg brain!

LieInsAreRarerThanTigers · 14/07/2011 14:40

I always think a vbac sounds like a thing for sucking the baby out!

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 14/07/2011 14:43

That's what a ventouse does - my son was born that way!

verylittlecarrot · 14/07/2011 14:46

I read the research, and chose home birth primarily because the evidence suggested it was as safe or even safer for the baby, and better for me. We discussed the "what ifs" and I decided to proceed when I was satisfied with the protocols for handling adverse events.

I had a major PPH. Midwives followed appropriate procedures and I was transferred to hospital. Exactly as expected per the contingencies we had prepared for.

Even given the remoteness of my home, home birth was a good option.

No regrets at all.

LieInsAreRarerThanTigers · 14/07/2011 14:51

Yes I know that amothersplace! (Not about your son) I mean because it makes me think of vac and I imagine a noisy dustbuster type thing.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 14/07/2011 15:13

Because sometimes being in that [hospital] environment makes people's labours become complicated and puts their baby at risk.

I would rather the hospital environment was improved so that whatever it is that complicated women's labours is removed as far as possible.

Money will come into the demand for more HBs (if it doesn't already) - I can see this turning into a cost cutting exercise.

Insomnia11 · 14/07/2011 15:23

I had an epidural and could still move around, within reason, I wasn't doing the hokey cokey or cartwheels, but was able to kneel and turn around and lean up backwards on the cushions and so on. And I could feel when to push because it was allowed to wear off before second stage (though I was slightly, er disappointed, that I'd have to 'feel' that bit). I did actually do some of the pushing on my back after DDs crowned, because I wanted to. Also after contractions I sometimes had a lie down on my back or side because I was knackered!

MotherPanda · 14/07/2011 15:57

I think a lot of people who are against homebirths dont understand that you still have two midwives in attendance for the birth, that they bring plenty of oxygen for you or the baby if needed, and resucitation equipment.

I personally believe that you are not taking any additional risks by staying at home - in fact i do believe its safer to stay at home, as by staying calmer and more comfortable in your home environment you are more likely to have an intervention free birth - its natural to nest - people seem to have forgotten what this means. You also avoid hospital infections, and as others have said your baby is more likely to have a high score after birth.

If you did have to have a c section - being at home when this is declared doesn't make any difference - because even in a hospital it still takes time to set up theatre! whilst they set things up for you, you can be in the ambulance on your way.

rollonby · 14/07/2011 16:32

I get the argument that for some people home will be a calmer environment and they will labour better and therefore will reduce the chance of intervention. However, for some people, myself included, intervention was always going to be necessary. I laboured well, was calm and coping on g&a but the cord was always going to be around her neck and she was always going to have to be born quickly. She had passed meconium and needed oxygen at birth, but was seen to by the scbu team immediately. The consultant was also on hand and delivered her. There is no way I would have risked even the 15 minute (at best) transfer to hospital, surely every second counts in those scenarios.

For me, that what if I need to be transferred possibility, would be enough to stress me out if I was at home. That and what if they run out of g&a :o

Surely the best solution would be for hospitals to make improvements in how they treat labouring mothers.

LeggyBlondeNE · 14/07/2011 16:44

rollonby - I did run out of G&A! It wasn't fun and I'm not impressed the taxi company contracted to bring more out fannied around for over an hour becuas eno one wanted to go get it, but to be hoenst it wasn't actually the worst 90 minutes of my life. Boy did I get my breathing in order!

smallwhitecat · 14/07/2011 16:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Tarenath · 14/07/2011 17:43

I would love to have a homebirth if I ever have another. I was present for my friend's homebirth and it was a wonderful experience (Not sure she agrees with me though!) Sadly it's not something that will every happen for me. I'm doomed to give birth in hospital even though I hated it. DS was born by emcs and the experience almost killed both of us. I simply couldn't risk a homebirth and having the same thing happen again.

HairyFrotter · 14/07/2011 18:02

MotherPanda if you need an emergency cs every second can count. Unless you can guarantee that you can be at the hospital quicker than they can set up in theatre then time will be wasted while you wait for/travel in an ambulance. It doesn't matter how many midwives there are - if the baby gets stuck they can't perform surgery and I wanted to be in the same building as people that could.

lovemysleep · 14/07/2011 18:11

Riveninside - I'm incredibly sorry that your daughter suffered brain damage - it's terrible and my heart goes out to you.....
But, and I haven't had a HB (DD born in hospital), I do know of someone who ended up with the same for her daughter (brain damage) with a hospital birth, due to a bodge-up at the hospital.
I'm not trying to say that one is safer than the other, just trying to gently suggest that these things can, and do, happen with both choices of where to have your baby.....

strandednomore · 14/07/2011 18:54

Harryfrotter - you would almost certainly have been at the hospital long before the crash section was needed in that circumstance. It's not like a woman is labouring beautifully, everything going to plan then suddenly wham bam into theatre and baby out within seconds.

lovemysleep - I have a friend similar to yours. Her son has severe brain damage, can't walk, talk or interact in any meaningful way. He was born in hospital.

spudulika · 14/07/2011 18:55

Rollonby - the problem with hospital isn't so much the environment - it's the fact that it's a hospital and functions as a hospital, with rigid protocols which are very helpful for the treatment of illness and injury but often do more harm than good when applied to a normal physiological process. We are mammals and to some extent we give birth like other mammals. Labour involves a hormonal cascade and this can become profoundly disrupted when a labouring mum is put among strangers in a strange place - no matter how kind those strangers or how clean and well designed the birth environment.

WineAndPizza · 14/07/2011 19:01

I agree with what rollonby said earlier and stories like rivens are why I personally would never have a homebirth. If something goes wrong that can only be saved by immediate action I want to be in a place where that immediate action is possible. If something went wrong at home I feel like I would blame myself for not having gone to hospital whereas I wouldn't feel the same the other way round (sorry riven if that is insensitive - I am not trying to imply in any way that there should be blame in your case)

Plus I know two midwives and one student, all of whom say they would never have a homebirth. I am going with their advice.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 14/07/2011 19:06

I know a few midwives and they would all (and have) had homebirths. So I will go with their advice.

See the flaws in this anecdotal thing?

WineAndPizza · 14/07/2011 19:08

No, I don't...I said I would go with their advice, not that you had to.

WineAndPizza · 14/07/2011 19:11

And spud, when we gave birth like other mammals (i.e. at home, alone, in fields...whatever) more babies died. And I don't know stats but I would be willing to bet that more mammals survive or are healthier being born with human intervention than in the wild.

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