To consider retraining as a barrister?

[princessglitter]

I am a teacher in middle management with a fairly secure, reasonably satisfying career. I have always dreamed of a career in the law. Originally I considered becoming a solicitor, doing a conversion course and going down the LPC route.

However, at the last minute, I lost my nerve and pulled out of my college course. The idea of that amount of debt was horrifying to me.

I trained as a teacher, but has always felt unfulfilled if I'm honest. As I've got older, the idea of retraining as a barrister has become more appealing, but I am acutely aware that so many fall by the wayside. I have secured a mini-pupillage this summer, which I am extremely excited about. I am also going to apply for vacation schemes at solicitors' firms to enable me to make an informed decision.

I do have a strong academic background and an Oxbridge 2.1 - but I know that that alone will not be enough.

Am I unreasonable to take a risk (with my husband's support) and consider a career in the law? Possibly as a barrister, but I intend to research this thoroughly with some real experience in both areas and different specialisms.

Thanks for contributions - am still here and reading posts - just haven't anything useful to add at the moment.

You can make a much bigger difference to lives in commercial law as any other and it may also mean yo uhave the spare funds to found your own charities etc. Do not forget we are "going God's work".. laughinas Itype...It isn't always those who work for nothing washing the feet of the poor who do the most good on this planet.

I am not saying no one should choose to do low paid legal work but why not leave it to the men and get many more women doing the better paid stuff? The person above who talked about if you earn a lot and are well known and respected you have more choice to organise your life and hours is right. I don't regret having the first 3 children in my early 20s but I certainly didn't have much money or power or control then in terms of work. It was much easier with the twins.

If people really want you and only you and no one else will do then sometimes they will wait. Sometimes they won't and you take a decision. I wasn't prepard to give up this trip to the Caribbean to do the work in Africa so that that was that (then they came back and did it the week after). Every day people prioritise things. Housewives decide do I clean the fridge or sheets or take the baby out. It's just a lot easier as a woman if you earn a lot of money and pic higher paid work and I see so many teenage girls who want to do family law or criminal law beause it's "exciting" but don't realise it can be as much as the difference between being in the call centre and sitting on the Tesco board in terms of pay between say £20k a year and £2m a year which some lawyers earn. I accept most people get to work bhind the tills at Tesco not on the board but I think women should aim high and life can be easier (not harder) if you earn more. You can delegate dross bits of housekeeping stuff, you get power and control with money and plenty of those with n o money then like to suggest that it's a horrbile life earning a lot with no time for family and that isn'tnecessarily so.

It was suggested above all I have in my life is work. I certainly enjoy work but I have five children lots of fun, lots of hobbies and all this works because I earn reasonable amounts.

It's not true that I don't kow how how hard younger barristers and solicitors can work and I talk every day to my daughters and hear about the work an dlife of their friends. Yes you can work hard (and I've worked pretty hard over the years) but it's fun and it's worth it and we all take decision. You can work very very hrd on the minimum wage doing 2 cleaning jobst with 2 hours of bus rides at th start of your shift because you can't afford the tube. We're lucky to have work at all. I just think it's important women realise the massive pay differences betweensome areas of law than others and not go into the low paid bits with their eyes closed.

I think when I was breastfeeding I did usually leave work on time. I remember one meeting - about 50 people were in the room. I was 25 and I think the main lawyer from my firm there. It got to 9pm. I did tell my contact I needed to get home to breastfeed. We did finish soon after. WE compromise every day as parents, male or female and if you're married to a man who doesn't change things - plenty of men rush home to see children, many men aren't sexist. Don't tolerate sexism in a relatioshpi even for one day or more fool you. I found in my 20s huge connections with clients who were much older but had children. Children are a bonding thing I had in common with them, not a problem.

Oh come on Xenia- "you can make a much bigger difference to lives in commercial law". Really?

I suppose that is true if you remember the "difference" you are making may be a negative one, rather than positive. Commerce is will always be driven by profit, not the impact upon individual human lives.

Of course it is possible to earn lots of money in commercial law and then set up charities, but that is not the reason people do it, is it? It is because they want to buy islands.

From my experience of the bar, it is the publicly funded work that is the most family-friendly. Ok, you do need to have reliable alternative childcare for when you get stuck in or called into court unexpectedly, but generally, your solicitor- client is not going to expect you to be working at 9pm every evening, because they will be at home with their children also. They will also not care if when they call you up for advice, you take that call from your kitchen table, whilst supervising the kids' tea, just so long as your advice is sound, and leads you to win at court.

If your lay-client is a human being, it is perhaps easier to remember that his or her lawyers are also.

lots of people have children, fun and hobbies xenia. stop thinking yours is the only way.

I am leaving my current job this week and will be going to a City training contract. A senior colleague started doling out her advice for my career and I had to think of Xenia and this thread! The advice was basically that I should refuse to do typical "female" seats like family law and make sure I do corporate. Told her the firm I am going to does not even do family work... was a bit to find out that she thought it would tbh.

Have to admit though that hours will probably be a factor when I decide where I want to qualify, because I do want to make my life compatible with having kids... I have seen a relative working like a dog in corporate at a US firm for days and nights on end and I could not live like that for long, especially not with kids.

(just general musings... not really replying to any specific comment on the thread with this one!)

If the firm offering the training contract is big in family any trainee, man or woman, must expect to do a family seat, like it or lump it. Bloody silly advice.

Ok this was my week this week:-

Monday - short local hearing in the morning. Home by 2pm (£500).
Tuesday - booked day off so at home all day with my baby
Wednesday - Watford, PI disposal - midday. 20 minute prep, c15 min hearing. Out of my house for about 1hr 15mins (£960) Went back out in evening for dinner with friends
Thursday - London, application to strike out a claim. 5-10 minute prep - 20 min hearing (£200). Home by midday. Took baby swimming pm.
Today - Hearing in Kent. A few minutes prep (just reading claim and response), home by 1pm (£450), went to NCT get together this pm.

Yeah rushed off my feet....

Rule 1 is avoid a firm which does family law if you want to earn decent money. I accept partners at Farrers earn £700k or something but in general that is a good rule to follow.

Also you do get some choice of which bits of law you go into.I loved tax so did that instead of extra property law. You are not always just a pawn and do as you're told.

Nowhere above have I said my way is the best way. I'm just trying to ensure women avoid low paid areas which they have typically gone into in all kinds of fields.

I do not accept that commercial law is any worse morally than saving prisoners on death row or defending your local murdered or innocent victim of social services miscarriage of justice. It is commerce which pays the benefits which huge numbers of mumsnetters who have neer done a day's work in their life rely upon. Were it not for those of us engaged in business they would starve. If we all went off to earn nothing and wash the feet of the poor or the legal equivalent there would n othing for the poor to eat. We do indeed do God's work and yet the press does such a poor job at presenting that picture.

If you can earn in an hour what plenty earn in a week surely that is family friendly. I don't see why going for low paid work, publicly funded work etc is lauded as a marvellous thing. If the state pays you it is rarely the best paid work to be doing. If you earn a lot and people are fighting to have your services then they tend to accommodate themselves around you. Yes I have found a barrister for a hearing next week but it's not the one we were originally using as he (not she, he) is home with a new baby and that's absolutely fine as it would be if it were a new mother not father. He obviously had no problem just booking that time off and he's quite junior. Obviously as also applies to me too if you do not work you don't eat so that tends to ensure you do do some work but you can make it work around your life to a certain extent. At some times hobbies will take priority, others small babies, others husbands and others work all the course of a normal day.
Of course in any field if you want a lot of money or success hard work is often equally as important as natural talent or anything else. It's rare to find anyone who earns a lot who hasn't at some point put in quite a bit of effort.

You don't see enough written about the satisfaction women (and men) get from their work/ We were talking about it at dinner last night.

The very same colleague who was going on to me about not doing a family seat was today strongly suggesting that the GDL is all a load of bollocks because it doesn't cover enough subjects for her liking and I haven't done "matrimonial law"... :(

Proudfoot there are three rules:

1. You can't win;
2. You can't draw; and
3. You can't leave the game.

Xenia maylike us to think she's richer than Croesus and wiser than Tiresias but she's a singleton...and not only by nature She's typical of most lawyers in that her primary motivation is MONEY. If she objects to be outed she should be more circumspect about the details she so crowingly reveals.

Tablevamp all very well to tell us what you were paid, but how much on expenses, chambers fees, VAT, tax, NI and pension? Surely that then gives those non-lawyers or hopeful lawyers to be a far clearer picture.
And also an indication of how long it'll take to get paid? My DH (8 years call) still has aged debt from his pupillage year.

Phoenixmum, that is a spiteful and vaguely threatening post to Xenia. Why do you take it so personally?

poshme -

Ok so my total for the week is £2,110 (I had already deducted VAT).
Chambers rent/expenses of 20% takes it down to £1588
Tax and NI probably takes it down to say £1,000 (very rough!!)
But then I can tax deduct a tonne of stuff (and have a v good accountant!!) so let's say £1200
My expenses this week were minimal - £5 train ticket here and there. Can tax deduct this anyway.
I will get paid this within 3 months usually. And even if it took longer I am receiving cheques from old work every week anyway so not as if it really matters that much!

c£1200 net in a week??!! Home before 2pm everyday AND a day off?? And time to take my baby swimming, go out for dinner and to a 4 hour NCT re-union??!! You find me a better job??!!! And not bad for a 25 year old huh

Oh and as I pay my tax by self-assessment I get to keep that all in a high interest savings account anyway (and use it if necessary)

Oh and after chambers expenses it should be £1688... so actually about £1300 gross for the week.

I never claimed maths was my strong point!!!!!!!

net even.

Lordy shoot me now!

Water off a duck's back although I don't think it's very good form to out people. There's no need. I'm delighted to debate what is interesting, what is good for women (and men), what makes a good life and which bits of law are best paid and what people earn.

I am not particularly materialistic. I would not have had five children if I were and if I did not like my work I would not do it. Most people by the time they get to my age (40s) tend to keep working because they like it rather than just the money but if you look at most of the themes of the novels and books 've read on this holiday and indeed threads on mumsnet often the problems are caused by women lacking moneyand power and control over their lives and if we can get more teenage girls to realise the implications of particular life choices so much the better.That might even be to say marry someone rich and to go the places where that is likely to happen if you are prepared as a woman to live off male earnings or choose your career wisely because wat you might think is fun at 20 might not seem so much fun when you'd rather like some help with cleaning your house or your child gets into a particularly bad state school and you cannot afford school fees etc.

As for what people earn there will always be someone on more but it can be quite fun to be successful.

I also think some women (men too) have very low income expectations through lack of experience and choose badly because of that. So it helps when people explain what is possible (although it takes about 10 minute on the internet to work out what lawyers earn so it's not exactly a state secret). The real money in the UK is in building up and selling businesses though, not service sectors such as ours. Even so it's better than if we worked as journalists or cleaners or teachers.

TableVamp, your experience sounds diametrically opposed to the experiences of every other barrister on this thread, as well as those of the numerous barristers I have spoken to elsewhere on the internet and in real life. I'm sorry to say this, but I just don't believe you. I don't know why you'd make this stuff up, other than the thrill of gloating to a load of internet randoms, but it all sounds too fantastic for words.

You don't believe me??!!!!!!!???!!!!!

Too fantastic for words??!!!!!

Maybe I shouldnt give up my job to be a SAHM after all!!!!!!!!

.....ooorrrrr maybe I am not like every other flippin barrister who goes on and on about how very haaaaaard they work I don't believe them.

I'm not making it up. I promise ya.

I'm actually getting a little bit disturbed by all the posts saying they don't believe the posters who are female lawyers who claim to earn more than buttons. Err, lawyers can be female, it is allowed you know. I very much doubt you would be so disbelieving of a man who made the same claims. Out of those, there are obviously going to be some high earners as well as a good proportion of middle earners.

Spoke to a new female solicitor this week who said that 90% of her degree class were female, so those who disbelieve should perhaps get their ideas moved into tune before they get left behind.

LOL at the suggestion that there is something wrong at being motivated by money. I guess that poster works in the voluntary sector/gives all their earnings to charity then?

I have no problem believing that female lawyers can earn shedloads. I know a couple of very high-earning female lawyers in real life and I'm delighted for them. I just don't know anyone at the commercial bar who would bill over £2000 for a 10-hour working week, planned to fit around their social life and childcare responsibilities, at the age of 25, only 18 months into tenancy having taken 6 months maternity leave during that time. I don't believe it's possible. Sorry.

Our 3rd 6 pupil billed TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND last month.

Barristers never like to admit this sort of thing. But when I read threads like this putting somebody off from joining the bar because you will "barely make a living wage" I find it incumbant upon me to point out that is not always the case.

wellwiser I couldn't give two hoots whether you believe me or not, frankly.

Yeah, it isn't the money TableVamp is on that looks remarkable, it's the other stuff in the post. Unless it was an unusually quiet week work wise. That does happen for barristers sometimes, and obviously she had a day off.

Xenia is right that if you can earn in an hour what some earn in a week, that can be family friendly. The problem is that what you have to go through to get there isn't. Additionally, you really have to have a very good rep indeed before you're secure enough to voluntarily turn down much work. No barrister I've ever known likes doing this- which is absolutely understandable, as they're self-employed people.

I didn't go into the law to earn large amounts of money and fortunately I qualified at a time where you didn't have to have a loan the size of the GDP of a small nation to do so. I went to an area of public law which I thought that I would enjoy and I do enjoy it. Commercial law whilst I imagine is satisfying in pecuniary ways doesn't have the same pull for me.

Xenia would see me as ghettoised, but actually I chose my specialism because what I do is intellectually challenging and makes a difference to other people, the money side is secondary. I just want to earn a reasonable living not own an island