to find the gender bias on this website depressing?

[starkadder]

I'm just SO sick of gender stereotyping beginning so early. I know it's something people have talked about a lot on MN and I'm really only posting this because I know a lot of you will agree with me.

But honestly...it's SO boring to see kitchen toys always in pink, described as being for "the young domestic goddess" or "able to satisfy even the fussiest housewife". And it's just so depressing to think how many children are forced into gender biased roles when they're still so little. My DS loves playing cooking and it never even occurred to me that this should be seen as a "girls' game". I'm expecting another baby this year - a girl - and am equally depressed to think about her being expected to play with ironing boards rather than toy cars. Ughhh...

Anyway, see here and here and tell me you're with me! You can write to them at [email protected] if you agree...

BOF : 'Mine were little before the preponderance of blue and pink. If I had babies now, I would stick to neutral stuff that you can easily get in places like Ikea.'

That's one of the things I find depressing, how things have slid back over the last 15 years or so. What happened?

starkadder - YANBU!

Just as an aside, I have noticed a real backlash here of late against feminism, with many people rushing to disassociate themselves from the movement. This thread is perhaps a chance to prove their credentials.*

• The above is very TIC before I get slated!

My BA (hons) dissertation concerned gender stereotypes in pre-schoolers. I found that the group I studied were already displaying stereotypical preferences by the time they started Nursery - 3 yo. This was then reinforced, not challenged by the curriculum and staff within the nursery. The EYFS curriculum's focus on individualism allows this to happen; free choice, child led play, etc does not encourage adult's to challenge sexism in play. Fascinating stuff but obvioulsy by findings are not generalisable.

I find this sooo depressing, but not nearly as depressing as all the people who say, oh it's only a catalogue/advert/film/program, what does it matter?

As an aside, my son had his toenails painted pink the other day and Granny (my MIL) was heard to say something along the lines of "you don't want that, pink things and nail varnish are for girls". My DS (3.5) very kindly and slowly explained that actually, he was still a boy and as he did have it on Granny must've made a mistake, mustn't she?
I was so proud.

Goblinchild... Your post struck a chord. I've definitely noticed the emphasis on blue and pink. I find it a bit monotonous and boring, a pile of toys in one main colour looks very odd to me. I seem to remember that our toys when we were younger were:

1. More primary colours than pastels
2. More wooden than plastic, I don't remember any pink wooden toys
3. Greater variety of different types of toy; suitable for either, geared to neither
4. Less available/less in demand - Christmas was geared up to in October, not before really.
5. Family orientated; brightly coloured, for multiple players

I wonder if this pink/blue colour stream is because toys are so often plastic, therefore cheaper (imported from China) and it's easier to make everything one of two colours? It's really very difficult to find toys that aren't made in China. Maybe that ties in with Josie's post on manufacturing?

I really miss the primary colours. :(

MY DS (2) has a passion for princesses, members of my family have suggested this may mean that he will be gay or trans.....ffs. Glitter and sparkle are lovely for all children, but boys are told it's not for them.

Incidentally I get about boys toys that are skills and occupation driven whilst girls are just about looks.

Ah... a topic near and dear to my heart. I spent a great deal of time at uni studying gender socialisation and spent the greater part of a summer in a post natal ward at a local hospital studying gender differences in newborn babies aged 2 hours to 2 days old.

To this day I haven't completely answered the nature vs nurture question in my own head but I do agree that there is far too much input from the nurture side than there ought to be.

I am expecting my first child, and we are really struggling with the nursery. Everything is pink, blue or white. Sometimes yellow/cream.

Friends and family aren't buying any presents for the little one until we reveal the sex. They just don't know what to buy, either through lack of imagination (some family members are deeply concerned by the prospect of a little boy owning anything with pink on it, even a bathtub) or through lack of choice.

I plan to raise our baby as I was raised (in the 70s) - toys must be balanced and cannot be overtly sex-stereotyped. We cannot stop our friends and families from buying in a sex-stereotyped way, but we can provide some balance ourselves, communicate our wishes, and at the end of the day, control the accessibility certain toys in our own home.

However, I don't feel particularly compelled to write to any stores about their silly descriptions of their toys. At the end of the day, I just vote with my feet.

I absolutely agree with you OP. The pinkness of everything in ELC is madness. Even a pink globe, because of course the actual blue colour of the world is obviously not good enough for Mummy's Little Princess.

I agree with the poster who said it's more about making money than any actual attempt to subjugate women, but sadly, children growing up thinking that there are boy's things and girl's things and that they shouldn't cross the gender line is the unfortunate result.

For a moment I thought you were going to complain about gender bias on this website!

'DS has a pink kitchen, a pink tea set, and will probably end up with a pink dolls' pram because I can't find one in another colour. He likes playing with these things - why do they have to be pink?'

There are loads of these items available not in pink. My DD has all off them in blue (I only buy blue things as it goes with the colour scheme of my flat ) They are widely available from ELC for one. Also got some stuff from wilkos and other department stores.

Put me down as someone who does not describe herself as a feminist, thinks gender differences are not a social construct but innate - and still thinks there should be far more neutral colouring, toy advertising etc. No child should be considered a 'tomboy' or 'possibly gay' because their imaginations are fired up by something different from the norm.

sorry- haven't read thread, but have to leap in with my two bob

I'm with OP. This lot drive me bonkers for exactly the same reason

I bought from them once, but now the catalogue goes straight in the recycling, unread

• it annoys the DDs too

[proud]

"Put me down as someone who... thinks gender differences are not a social construct but innate"

What, all of them?

Is there a gene for pink? Does testosterone affect whether you want to wear trousers rather than skirts? Does having a penis mean that you want to wear the hair on your head short rather than long?

We shouldn't talk about nature vs nurture. Personality and behaviour and the choices we make are all of the combination of the two.

I don't think anyone (not even Cordelia Fine herself) is saying that all differences in behaviour between males and females are sociological. But I would say that assuming gender differences to be fixed and innate is far far more harmful to society and to individuals than simply saying that different people are different and that we should give everyone the same opportunities to express that individuality.

Oh, I am so pleased lots of people who agree have arrived! As pirate said, I was finding it even more depressing that people on MN were basically telling me to calm down, dear.

Exactly, trilllian - different people are different. So unnecessary to limit freedoms so early and without reason.

Even if girls and boys really were innately different in a thing (liking pink, cars, spatial awareness, whatever) to the same extent that men and women are different heights (no-one is going to dispute that men tend to be taller than women) that still leaves a huge amount of overlap and an enormous middle area, and by dividing up toys in this way you are doing a massive misservice to a large number of children . Lots and lots of individual boys could like the girl thing, lots and lots of individual girls might like the boy thing, even if there were a genetic difference (and there is no/little/only heavily disputed evidence that there is).

Did I kill the thread?

Companies do what makes them the most profit. They try out different things to see if they sell. No one says at a board meeting "how can we use our products to keep women subservient"

So rightly or wrongly this indicates that most customers don't think this subject is important at all and are fine with things as they are now.

"What, all of them?"

No, I doubt ALL gender differences are innate. Of course many are social constructs. I think looking at other cultures is a good way of working out which are which. But others here seem to have studied the subject more.

Ah but onagar that would assume there is choice. Once there isn't any choice to speak of, its purchase isn't a vote of approval.

IME children usually have their own preferences.

Out of four DC I have had 2 boyish boys (lego, guns, swords cars etc) 1 girl who prefered 'boys' stuff but then turned into a 'girlie' girl around age 13 and now at 18 has settled somewhere inbetween.

My youngest DS (4) has a disney princess doll and dress up collection to rival any girl so I guess we will see how that pans out.

I also resent people telling me I am 'making' him gay or TV because I let him play with the things he likes! Funnily no-one ever said that about DD and her love of cars and tracksuits.

Crapola I love the sound of your boys!

TrilllianAstra: "Even if girls and boys really were innately different in a thing (liking pink, cars, spatial awareness, whatever) to the same extent that men and women are different heights (no-one is going to dispute that men tend to be taller than women) that still leaves a huge amount of overlap and an enormous middle area, and by dividing up toys in this way you are doing a massive misservice to a large number of children . Lots and lots of individual boys could like the girl thing, lots and lots of individual girls might like the boy thing, even if there were a genetic difference (and there is no/little/only heavily disputed evidence that there is)."

Quoting the above, because she put it better than I was going to.

P.S. The pink globe from ELC makes me see red (bad joke).

Thanks Jessie :)

Some of these catalogue descriptions are really fucking scary, given that they are actually designed to appeal to the mothers' vision of their own daughters. ("The fussiest little housewife..."). After all, it's the mother who does the actual purchasing in most cases is it not?

We are all doomed.

My dd likes to sweep the floor and clean with a baby wipe, takes care of her dolls and makes tea with her tea set. This is a response to copying her mummy and what she sees me doing. She would copy me if I was hammering nails in, washing the car or shaving my face it's just part of learning and I would buy her a dust pan and brush in pink because it's available and she likes to do it because of the above reasons.