Different levels of literacy in our society

[GabbyLoggon]

Different groups of people are expressing themselves with vastly different
grasp of English.

One example the Sun reader is not likely to use words in the way the Telegraph uses them.

Mirror and Guardian readers...likewise.

It is not a question of right or wrong; more a question of different ways of expressing ourselves.

This may come mainly from a family backgrounf rather than a school background

Because by the time the child reaches compulsory schooling the die may have been cast as to the way they speak.

I would not mention this if the difference was MINOR...buty it is vast. And can become obvious among Mumsnetters

What can be done? You tell me.

Donnie. The Daily mail will have a big Middle class readership. Not so the Sun

I must emphasise 86 per cent of prisoners are said to be illiterate. Thats cause and effect up top a point. You dont want me to tell you about Victoria Derbyshire. (Paxman in bloomers.) She wont Sue.

Oh its Arabic there you go,I am officially a stupid Northerner he he.(I recently re read A Passage to India) and it was used quite a lot in that.

Who says that 86 percent of prisoners are illiterate? Where do you come by your stats Gabby?

tins 86.534% of statistics are made up.

General Most of us do...

errr....where EXACTLY is the 'cause and effect' between claiming the Daily Mail has a big middle class readership and then telling us that 86% of prisoners are 'said' (implying you have no proof) to be illiterate?

where is the link? I am one of those intelligent, middle class and well educated people with a sophisticated vocabulary you keep going on about but I have to tell you your posts make no sense. They are a series of non-sequiturs.

Explain the link - if you can!

86% of prisoners are said to be illiterate? Are you sure (80% of statistics are made up you know That figure seems high, and prisoners are not representative of the general populace.

In 2008, approx 25% of young offenders had a reading skills lower than the average 7 year old and 60% of the overall prison population are believed to have difficuklty with basic literacy/numeracy skills. A high proportion of prisoners also have no qualifications (whether that is down to illeteracy/innumeracy, I don't know) - however just because you don't have qualifications doesn't make you illiterate or less intelligent.

He isn't saying prisoners represent the population. But if 86% is accurate, then it does suggest a link(statistically) between illiteracy and crime. I think that's what he was saying.

'BBC English' is no longer a matter of accent, thank goodness. Its a matter of speaking clearly, comprehensibly and (mostly) grammatically. Anyone who thinks BBC English is RP obviously hasn't listened to the wireless for 30 years or so.

Case in point - this weekend Neil Nunes' rendition of the Shipping Forecast was aural velvet.

Backward Possum then I cordially invite you to the North Midlands with your red or green correcting pen, as it's not policy here, much to my chagrin

It someone has problems with basic literacy and numeracy then that(in most cases) is going to get in the way of gaining qualifications. Lack of qualifications presents fewer options, so a higher percentage will resort to crime. That's not to say all who are illiterate will resort to crime, some will make different choices.

Gabby - are you dyslexic?

NO MDOW but you are ill mannered and foolish

TotemPole I agree that OP isn't saying prisoners are representative of the population. My point was that the statistic is a ) wrong (when you read research into literacy among prisoners, the figure is lower) and b) applies to prisoners who are not representative of the general populace - so you may find that when looking at illiteracy/innumeracy acrioss the general populace the numbers are lower or higher or the same.

It's chicken and egg - are 86% of prisoners committing crime because they are illiterate or are they illiterate because of other factors - nature vs nuture debate.

totem 86 per cent makes your interuption slightly nonsensicial. I talk prisoners.

LOOK LETS AGRREE..its bette rto be able to read and write than be illiterate.

so stick to the plucking subject. What have you done for your kiddywinkies in this diorection?

OP, many GCSE students will be able to comment on the irony of those steretypes with reference to a Tom Leonard poem, from Unrelated Incidents!

Posh nursery school. Literate tutor prior to school. Good books for the child. I am assuming you care

But again: your points aren't about literacy. Just because the DM has a middle-class readership it is not necessarily 'more literate' than The Sun. In fact, the DM website (well, I'm not going to walk down the street with it under my arm, am I?) is full of typos, poor grammar and random spelling. It takes real literacy skills to make the complex simple, and The Sun excels at this.

whats recieved pronounciation? maybe i speak like that...!

I wasn't being ill-mannered Gabby, I was asking a genuine question.

are 86% of prisoners committing crime because they are illiterate or are they illiterate because of other factors

GeneralDreedlesNurse, lack of parental support, not necessarily always by choice, but because the parents can't pass on what they can't do themselves. But then add to that in a poor area, the schools aren't that good etc. So you'll have pockets where illiteracy levels are higher and the levels of crime are higher.

I'm talking statistically.

totem 86 per cent makes your interuption slightly nonsensicial. I talk prisoners.

I don't know what you mean. I was talking about prisoners too. 86% of prisoners being illiterate does not mean that 86% of illiterates will end up in prison.

TotemPole we are in agreement and I thought OP was a tad harsh on you.
Offender literacy is a different subject to literacy in general.

I must admit that I don't like the way the OP is taking the discussion - private nurseries/tutors etc don't mean a child will love books, words, writing, numbers etc and will grow up to be a high achiever with high levels of literacy/numeracy.

Neither of my parets were particularly well educated (if you look at qualifications as a measure) but both instilled in me me a love of books and reading and a quest for knowledge. I could read independently at 2 (and was bi-lingual) as could both my children as books as are a huge part of our lives - I'm lucky that I had great role models.

Schools do much to encourage reading, but then at othe times i think they discourage reading by introducing children to a film of the text they are going to read/study (I appreciate this can work both ways depending on learning styles) or by dumbing it down to comic strip/cartoon style. Again, though if this encourages a child to take an interst in a story they would normally never look at it, it's got to be a good thing.

There will always be differeing levels of literacy within society and we have to accept that - not everyone can or wants to be educated to degree level - vocational skills are just as important. A world where we all sat round contemplating our navels and discussing the esoteric values of religion, philosphy etc isn't necessarily one I'd want to live in.

So yes, literacy is a positive thing, but it isn't the only thing and paying for a private education/tutor etc isn't the right way to improve/encourage literacy.

GeneralDreedlesNurse, thank you.

I don't always understand what the OP is saying so currently have no idea whether I agree with them or not.

There is a long admitted connection between illiteracy and crime. (It would seem silly to pretend it was otherwise.)

Very few middle class people end up in prison. Crime is largely lower orders. (At least that which gets to court is)

I am sure there is a lot of middle class fraud which never gets to court. (Partly because they are clever)

As my dear old uncle used to say, 'Criminals are stupid. That's why they get caught.' And there are stupid middle-class people too you know. I've met some of them. I'm sure there are linkages between type of crime / type of sentencing tariff / types of people / and perceived 'need' to commit crime but I can't be bothered doing the research because I thought this was a thread about literacy.