To ask will a bright child really be ok whever they go to school ?

[Ishani]

Bit of background, ours have been in private school since nursery apart from 2 years where we tried the local church school.

We moved them not because of the school itself but down to a group if bullies who were awful and when our DD moved they got their teeth into another child who then went on to fail the 11+ as a result of these little witches, seriously this other girl was one you'd have bet your house on passing but she was so unhappy in year 5 and 6 there's no other explaination, she just didn't want to go where these other girls were going, they have all of course passed and are off to the best grammar in the country :-(.

I agree that if your child is happy and has good parental support (and maybe a little tutoring for weak areas) they will be fine. For all you angsty parents who think that your child will do badly without small classes and/or distractions - how do you think your kids will fare at college/university when they suddenly need to develop self motivation?

My DH went to private school and got 10 As in his GCSES (no A*s then) and went on to get 2 As and 2 Bs at 'A'level which was more rare than nowadays in the eighties. HOWEVER, as soon as he left home and his cossetted environment with pushy mum, he went mad, didn't attend classes, got pissed all the time. He ended up taking 5 years to get a third in his degree.

He totally regrets it now and wishes he had had a chance to learn self-motivation as well as the academic stuff.

Let that be a lesson to you!

I think it depends a lot on the child. I went to a pretty poor school but did well. My brother was lazy and did poorly. My sister was the kind that went along with the crowd. She started hanging about with the cool kids and did very little work.

My brother needed a school that pushed him much more. My sister needed to be in a school where the cool kids also worked hard.

However, the research all shows that the best indicator of academic success is to have parents who value education and encourage their children to do well. This isn't about spending lots of time with them,its about seeing education as important.

You are getting mixed reports of schools from parents. That is usually because, unless it is a total sink school, there will be good and bad teachers in all schools. That is why I think paying for extra tuition if your child has a bad teacher or struggles in a particular subject, could make all the difference.

If it helps I went to an inner city state secondary, and then admitedly one of the best sixth forms in the country (also state). I now have a good job in the media and work with mainly privately educated, oxbridge types.
As long as your child is motivated (motivation does not come free in the state sector) the you will be fine. Save up the money for their crippling uni education!

That's true isitreally. True for my children that is.

It's difficult to say it depends on the child , I went to a small village primary (with 2 teachers, one of which taught everything in relation to the bible including maths!!!), then a secondary that could at best be described as shite mediocre. I went on to university and despite battling serious medical problems now have several degrees, I'm not that clever but I am stubborn determined. I had bright parents but they weren't so great at the parenting bit and both worked full time & both had their own businesses so worked 24/7. My brother is really clever but a lazy argumentative sod and now in his late 20's seems to finally be finding his way in life but even he did really well at school/uni. In fact a selection of poor and mediocre schools and busy parents didn't seem to have done any of my family ( 4kids) any harm and despite all having different talents and abilities we have all done more than ok out of life. I know we have been lucky but it does make me less stressed about DS

Interesting. I have a fairly bright son who 'failed' the 11+ by a few marks (which equated to 100 places on the GS waiting list) and is coming to the end of Y7 in a 'sink' school. He was a solid level 5 pupil at the end of KS2.

I have tried to be open minded, I have been supportive of the school but we have reached the point where we are trying to transfer him elsewhere...and if we can't we'll HE.

He's not really made 'progress' this year. He's constantly stressed by the general 'violence' that's accepted within the school - 'cos they are boys, and boys are violent!!! There is also a constant low level disruption in class, issues with drugs (he's been offered a joint on his way home from school more than once), boys looking at porn on their mobile phones during lessons, boys being arrested in school for drug offences, boys going to hospital in ambulances after being assaulted....

Aside from the above, the whole culture of aspiration there is really low...as long as you aren't in a gang/haven't been excluded you are doing ok.

I don't know what the definitive answer to your OP is, but just thought I'd add my experience.

Is the issue primarily the school, or is it all tied up with going back to work and not being at home with the kids? Because you don't sound at all keen on the entire move, TBH - so maybe the school issues are a way of avoiding it?

FWIW, my DD went to a 'failing' community school - it went into special measures when she was year 8 - but I went with my instinct. although the children weren't socially polished they were friendly and happy looking, and the atmosphere was very welcoming. The school is now out of special measures and DD looks like she is going to get really excellent results. She has had loads of extra attention from her teachers, who were always willing to give her extra tuition after school (at no cost!). She has also had her eyes opened to a wider range of backgrounds and kids who weren't as lucky as her, and she is much more compassionate and patient as a result. However, she can also swear like a sailor.

She has always been a confident, bright, outgoing kid, though, very self motivated and ambitious. So I agree with others who have said you have to consider all the factors.

And my final two point - any school that says it has no bullying is lying, and all schools have teachers who have a variety of strengths and weaknesses.

THIS IS NOT AN AIBU QUESTION

alistron I sympathise - my DS is a year older than yours (approaching end of yr 8) and just failed the 11+ by one mark. His school is also pretty dreadful, there is no aspiration among the pupils or the teachers for that matter - he is top of his year, but that is meaningless when a lot of the kids only have the most basic literacy skills. The only plus is that there's no violence.

I went to a shit school (much like DSs current one) where I learned nothing for 5 years - I only made it to uni because of my 6th form (which was great) and my very bright parents. And the fact that from the age of 13 I 'knew' I was going to Cambridge and made it happen.

I don't agree any child will be ok. My son is 12 and already 'bored' by school. Age 10 he wanted to go to university and be a sports journalist or commentator :). Now he thinks he might 'do' building work, or claim benefits, as that's what his friend's parents do...

I'd love my son to get extra tuition; I've spent 2 years asking for more challenging work for him and nothing has happened. The teachers couldn't be less interested.

I can't see why on earth you'd move and risk her schooling right now! Dh can surely manage a bit longer?

Hatesponge, I can relate to your comments totally. We're lucky, being in education that we can give him pointers/support in order to keep him progressing.

It's the culture of low aspiration that really gets me. This term he's been lax with his homework. At my DD's grammar schools he'd be in deep shit, but because (according to his school ) he's 'bright' they don't care.

From his POV, why should he bother when he doesn't get a rocket up his arse and the teachers are busy dealing with 'serious' stuff..

I put a rocket up his arse at home, but I'm battling against the schools expectations!! Crazy.

Because he turns up, on time, in uniform and sits and behaves he's pretty much left to his own devices. His books are only marked sporadically (in core subjects) It upset me to see him in the autumn term taking real pride in his work...but as the year has gone on he doesn't bother 'cos no one marks it.

Maybe he's not the bright sort of kid the OP is talking about, but in the current climate IME going to a shit school limits kids.

It's not a case of DH managing, it's me, 4 children on my own and going around the twist slightly, but yes you're right it's to big a gamble.

It probably really depends on the child. I went to a mediocre private school where I was in the top 3 of the class without putting in any effort - so I didn't really try. Even when I thought I was working hard I wasn't really, and it wasn't cool to be bright, so I didn't like to look as though I was making any effort. As a result I got okay exam results and only really start to shine properly when I went to Uni/post graduate school.

DP on the other hand went to a really crap school but did brilliantly in most of his exams (probably without trying - grrr) but like isitreally's son, went of the rails at uni, got totally monged and dropped out early. We're still not sure whether he got a degree at all as neither of us can figure out the transcript he got!

For me, if I'd been at a more academic school I probably would have got better results - but my parents thought it was better for me to learn to get along with a wide range of people/situations etc.

alistron, same here. DS gets much less homework than his grammar school friends, and there's no sanction if he doesn't do it. Teachers have no interest in him because it's more about crowd control than education :( I would send him elsewhere but I can't afford private, and the other non grammars are not much better than his current school.

A lot of the experiences on here add weight to the arguments against grammar schools. It seems that in areas where they still exist, the other state options are really dire. Far better to have the comprehensive system. Setting by ability can still exist (and indeed seems very much the norm- my yr 8 dd is set for all subjects except pe/art/tech) but there is the flexibility to move sets within the school, rather than kids being segregated at age 11 on the basis of a narrow 'snapshot' test

janey, I agree.

I used to think grammars were a brilliant idea, but now having first hand experience of the alternatives, I've changed my mind. I know there are some areas where there are decent alternatives to grammars (Chelmsford is one that springs to mind) but where we are, if you miss the grammar you get what is very definitely a second rate education. That's hard on all the non-grammar children, but particularly those like my DS, who are top of a school where the majority of his year will be lucky to get 1 or 2 GCSE passes, and even the children in the top set with him are academically far behind him.

Based only on my own experience, and without having read the thread, yes but they will have a bloody awful time.

Actually, I now teach in the private system and I see children who are no more intelligent than many of my friends from school outperforming them, so I do think it matters. Maybe not to the extent that a bad school = total failure, but it can definitely be the difference between, for example, Luton University and Sheffield University, or Sheffield and Cambridge.

Ok Ishani - I should point out I havent read the whole thread (I know, I know) but just wanted to add my own experience.

Not trying to be an arse here I promise, but as a child I was classed as gifted believe it or not. I was singled out, passed everything with flying colours, was advanced far beyond my age group etc etc.

I went to state high school, which didnt have the same approach of challenging the academic students. I soon became very bored.

Couple this with not very supportive parents and personal issues, and I cocked up my last years of schooling.

Fast forward several years - I have gone back into education and am doing great. I am still classed as the "clever one" and tend to excell in my assignments.

I like to look at it this way - life has thrown alot of shit at me, but with brains you can always make it. Yes, its true that had I gone to some exceptional private school and had supportive parents id probably be in some high flying career rolling in money. But you can always fall back on your intelligence - looks will fade, money will run out, but your mind will still be there.

A truely gifted child with your support will always make it.

Not to say, by the way, that the only choice is between private and sink comprehensive! I wish I'd had the chance to go to a school where academic achievement was valued, whatever sort of school that might have been.

Hatesponge, you could be typing my posts for me. Crowd control vs education. V.true.

Is there any way you could stay put, send her to the grammar and maye get a cleaner? Other help around the house? 4 DC and alone all week is tough...my DH worked abroad for ten months and I went nuts...I know it's hard. But you do seem to be risking a lot.

bottleofbeer hit the nail on the head
is the child bright or gifted?

we sent our DD1 to what we considered a good school, 6 weeks in they asked us in, as they couldnt accommodate her, and aged 4 after 6 weeks, she was moved within 2 days to what they described as "a more academically minded school" a worrying time for us, but all went smoothly, so no, not all schools can cope with bright children, and both our other cildren also went to the same school as she did eventually

all 3 went to grammar school (2 have now left and at uni, 3rd is in 6th year and a baccalaureate student) local high school has never once produced a baccalaureate, so if we had just sent them there, they wouldnt have realized their potential

I think the majority of kids that do well in any environment have to have the drive to want to, but also be around like minded people. If there are other very bright kids in the class then this is a major plus. If everyone is average or not trying then most kids bring themselves down to their level to make sure they dont stand out.

A lot also depends on the schools themselves. Some teachers do care and stretch their children to the best of their ability, some teachers feel that a child has hit their targets and they are left to coast. (No doubt MN teachers will disagree but this is my personal obserservation).

One of my DC is very bright but has coasted through school and suddenly in Y6 the teacher has noticed her abilities and has stretched her, extended her and really motivated her. For the whole time she has been in school she has never found schoolwork hard, and now all of a sudden, she is having to think and really use her brain and is really happy to rise to the challenge. The teacher is showing an interest in her so she wants to show that she is capable of producing good and accurate work.

I think that a learning environment where children are encouraged to think for themselves, be self motivated andself driven to achieve targets will be better for children inthe long term.