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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think it doesn't take four burglars to rob one small terraced house

72 replies

CogitoErgoSometimes · 23/06/2011 14:34

Burglar stabbed to death

... and they don't normally let themselves in when the place is full of people either. It's going to get played out as a 'homeowners entitled to defend themselves' story but there's something about this story that doesn't ring true.

OP posts:

AwesomePan · 23/06/2011 15:31

no, cogi - I know the bit where you mean, near the Uni. Yes dead, because of course Salford is the only place people die of unnatural causes...

No, I don't mean that bit, That'll be a 'rough' bit.

I'm not drawing diagrams for you.

DeepPurple · 23/06/2011 15:32

Burglary doesn't mean they intended to steal. The legal definition also covers if someone is entering a property with the intent to commit grievous bodily harm. It sounds more likely that this is the case here. Although I know nothing about it (shrug)

Ephiny · 23/06/2011 15:32

This sort of thing does happen. It happened to me and DP, only it was six men (and not masked). One of them had a knife. A similar thing happened to a colleague's friend, several men broke into his flat and threatened him with an iron bar. In both cases it was drug-related and they'd got the wrong house/flat.

Original poster

CogitoErgoSometimes · 23/06/2011 15:33

"Reasonable" is the test. If you happen to be a frail old lady vs burly bloke, then you give them everything you can throw at them and no-one's going to convict you for being unreasonable. If you happen to be a big burly bloke, however, and the intruder is some wisp of a kid, you can bring them down and hurt them but you probably shouldn't stick the bread-knife between their ribs for the hell of it.

OP posts:

AwesomePan · 23/06/2011 15:34

Tony Marten - 'everyone said he did the right thing'...so that'll be excepting me and..........the jury.

mayorquimby · 23/06/2011 15:42

"Rule of thumb is If they punch you, you should use slighty less force,"

Dunno where people are getting these rules of thumb. If they hit you, hit or stab them with whatever you can.
If they're in your house and you think they pose a threat but they haven't actually assaulted you yet, hit or stab them with whatever you can and say you were in fear of your life and they said they had a weapon.

AwesomePan · 23/06/2011 15:45

surely it's only in the UK that you can't assault a burglar before you have been properly introduced??

mayorquimby · 23/06/2011 15:48

It's not that in the UK either. You can use proportionate force to protect you,your family,your property or any other person or their property from being subject to a crime. Whether or not the force is proportionate is judged from your subjective view point.

MrSpoc · 23/06/2011 15:50

mayorquimby - I was trained on it when I served in Northorn Ireland for the Army.

It is used as a guide so you can be sure of staying within the law. As i also said that in RL it is a whole different ball game.

Agree that the cant do anything until they reach the top step is bollocks. What happens if you live in a bungalow? LOL

mayorquimby · 23/06/2011 15:50

The only thing you can't do is use excessive or disproportionate force or enact some revenge style fantasies.
So stabbing a burglar and killing him because you believed they were threatening your life = ok
Knocking out a burglar with a cricket bat = ok
knocking out a burglar with a cricket bat and then while he's unconscious going in to the kitchen to get a knife and teach him a lesson = illegal

AwesomePan · 23/06/2011 15:51

I know mq - being heavily sarcastic about the restraint thing, and also about the British reserve, both in the same joke....

mayorquimby · 23/06/2011 15:52

"mayorquimby - I was trained on it when I served in Northorn Ireland for the Army"

Fair enough, that's interesting. My training is from a strictly legal practicioner background and we were never told to use this rule of thumb for clients.
Perhaps it's something to do with how the armed forces would be viewed in light of their training/what would be expected from them in stressfull confrontations and so they would have a higher threshold for judging what is proportionate.
My rule of thumb has always been "say you were inf ear of your life."

mayorquimby · 23/06/2011 15:52

in fear

Bennifer · 23/06/2011 15:53

Whenever this topic comes up and people propose the current law, I find myself thinking the current law allows for reasonable force. What do you propose, the use of unreasonable force?

AwesomePan · 23/06/2011 15:54

so OP, how many burglars does it take to rob one small terraced house? Is it a sort of joke answer? Or does it involve a tricky equation??

mayorquimby · 23/06/2011 15:54

Ah apologies awesomepan. I've had a few too many conversations with "pc-gone mad" brigade in the past so have lost all sense of detection for satire. That is genuinely the kind of thing they will wheel out in an argument on the subject. They'll also manage to bring in the EU and Yoo-man Rights despite them having nothing to do with the rule of law on this matter.

saladfingers · 23/06/2011 15:55

The son is described by neigbours as 'having lots of visitors'. I think it sounds like he was a drug dealer. Could have been a lot of cash/drugs in the house. This would explain 4 burglars and the defensive action taken by the inhabitants

mayorquimby · 23/06/2011 15:56

"Whenever this topic comes up and people propose the current law"

That's what infuriates me as well.
The conversation goes
A: You should be allowed to use reasonable force to defend your home
B: you can
A:

AwesomePan · 23/06/2011 15:57

no worries. I am usually lumped in the liberal, human rights section myself. Except when it comes to not accepting the 'rights' involved in attacking my home and kin.

WholeLottaRosie · 23/06/2011 16:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MrSpoc · 23/06/2011 16:01

Mayor the last bit of advice you gave was excellent and is also the default position that the Army advices you to say.

I feared my life or some one elses life was in danger so I used reasonable force to put a stop to the threat.

No one can argue about how you felt in that situation. (This is heavily taught in Rules of Engagement).

Bennifer · 23/06/2011 16:02

I meant to say "propose the law be changed". The current law seems pretty fair, you can use reasonable force, and reasonable depends on the situation, the weapons they have, etc.

MrSpoc · 23/06/2011 16:06

Self defence is also used in the same way but people trip themselves up by saying the wrong thing.

TurkeyBurgerThing · 23/06/2011 16:11

If you're the kind of shit of the earth who breaks into other people's houses to steal stuff and one day someone kills you then it serves you deserve to be bumped off.

I say this as someone who was a victim of crime to one of these vile beings as I was in labour with DS2.

SybilBeddows · 23/06/2011 16:15

re burglars not usually coming in when the place is full of people - not true, one of the peak times for burglaries is the early hours of the morning (IIRC, 3-4am) when people are most deeply asleep.

My parents' house was burgled by a group of men on a summer evening while they were having dinner, it was quite scary.

I once met someone who woke up one night to find a man in his bedroom going through the pockets of his clothes which were hanging on the back of a chair. The burglar said in a soothing voice 'Everything's fine, go back to sleep' so he did, and it was only when he woke up the next morning he realised he had, in fact, been burgled

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