to not really get why kids join gangs?

[HidinginaHardHat]

The stereotype appears to be they join for a sense of belonging, get up to a lot of not very nice stuff and either end up in jail or dead. I realise this is a stereotype but is the sense of belonging really worth it?

AIBU to not get it?

bejeezus that is so grim, doesn't suprise me though, we are living in such a selfish society - it could be so much better - sad that 10 years of my work has been disregarded by some tory

'Why is it safer being in than out'?

Because, it's safer to be part of the scary group than to be the scared one.

The last thing most teens want is to be 'different'. It's not safe to be different.

Really your looking at kids of parents who don't give a shit or don't know how to give a shit.

Also what you have to understand prison is in most cases better than their home life so they have no reason to be afraid

They will get an education

They will be fed

Clothed

Be warm

Many of these kids are often unsupervised for long periods, their parents take no interest in their education they are contending with mums latest boyfriend, the children are often kicked out out weekends and told not to come back till dark.

The key is getting to these parents before they become parents or failing that when their children are young.

Part of the issue in my view is you are no longer able to talk about the causes of children failing into gangs even though their is evidence.

It has become taboo to mention it and if you do you just get load of abuse so this will never be sorted as we are not willing to have a honest debate about the type of families that a child is more likely to become a gang member in.

maypole- plenty of gang members come from perfectly functional/supportive family backgrounds

bejeezus this is actually what I am talking about the stats don't support what your saying if you look at the youth prison population the majority are not from well to do families they are at the lower end.

I don't want to get into this because its stupid just because their are a small number of young people who get into the wrong crowd it dose not take away that the majority of young people who get into serious crime come from disadvantaged homes if not then why is the goverment, the police and charities poring millions in to this section of society.

Why is everyone in such a up roar about sure start closers.

Because we recognise that this section is more venerable to crime, poor educational attainment and poor Heath out comes.

This is not an attack on the poor but we have to see that the majority or people currently at hmp are not oxford educated and had a nanny.

yes, your right the majority do come from dysfunctional or unsupportive backgrounds.

I'm not sure that is ever going to be a very productive discussion or approach to the problem though?- Addressing socio-economic factors/ ensuring equal opportunities etc has to be the goal in solving lots of social problems but it is at very best long term. And at worst, impossible.

Even given the best environment, there are going to be crap parents and shitty family situations- there needs to be a realistic alternative to gangs for the kids to escape to. Its hard to provide everything a gang provides though.

I was quick to jump in with the 'its not just poor kids' approach, because I have a personal experience, where a friend was blamed by SS/ police etc for the situation her daughter got in to. Bad home life was not a factor and it was very frustrating and prevented effective help because no one would look outside this...but fully accept that I presented an emotional response which doesnt represent the big picture. And there arent resources to address exceptions to the norm

Kids get involved in gangs because they provide companionship, a sense of belonging, camarderie and support. Agree with bejeezus that most of these kids come from families where the children are not adequately supported or looked after - sometimes the parents fault, sometimes not. So the gang can become a substitute family.

Also criminal activity in a gang and earning lots of money for their age, can seem very attractive.

Yes being in a gang can make people feel safer. But most children in very poor areas don't join gangs, so I don't think it is as simple as that.

Scouts, cadets, Duke of Edinburgh, etc are not going to appeal to these kids however they are marketed. To get involved in scouts, cadets you need to wear a uniform which is a barrier both a monetary one and a psychological one. Similarly the religious side of them can be a barrier. You also need volunteers who are prepared to run them and could handle these often very challenging kids.

Children tend to be from poorer backgrounds because:

1. If you have severe unstable mental health problems, drug or alcohol problems that makes being an adequate parent more challenging, you are less likely to be able to hold down a job, and certainly a job that makes much money.

1. If you are well off but an inadequate parent you can pay for someone else to parent your child e.g. an experienced nanny.

1. If you are well off and your child has major problems, you can pay for professional support to try and tackle the issues e.g. psychological support, family therapy, etc.

No different that joining a religious sect, except it's real and tangible. They don't join them to become nasty shits, they become nasty shits because that is the price of belonging, like virtue is the price elsewhere. When so many institutions (religious or otherwise) have failed to provide realistic understanding or worthy support, people turn tribal.

Some very simplistic views on this thread. Gang culture, and the reasons why people join and stay in gangs, are incredibly complex subjects. There are a couple of psychs who are beginning to specialise in this area but only one actively working gangs expert who undertakes expert witness work in this field - it is only just really being understood.

It is certainly not as simple as "children from deprived backgrounds need companionship and belonging". Not in a million years. There is a massive, massive fear factor involved and that is something that no-one who does not live in communities/areas who are blighted by gangs will ever "get". There are issues around the normalisation of gang culture. There are brainwashing type issues. There are drugs issues, mental health issues, vulnerability issues. Gang culture has grown organically over a period of time and continues to change and evolve and it is very difficult to pinpoint the reasons why it continues to have a hold over young people in certain communities.

It is also not restricted to children from broken/deprived/criminal homes. Children from "good" families are not immune to being drawn into gangs if they happen to have peers in gangs, or if they are in an environment where it is safer to join up than stand out.

"There is a massive, massive fear factor involved and that is something that no-one who does not live in communities/areas who are blighted by gangs will ever "get". There are issues around the normalisation of gang culture. There are brainwashing type issues. There are drugs issues, mental health issues, vulnerability issues. Gang culture has grown organically over a period of time and continues to change and evolve and it is very difficult to pinpoint the reasons why it continues to have a hold over young people in certain communities."

Sounds like religion to me.

Human societies are always tribal to one extent or another. It's the way we have evolved.

IMHO whether or not the particular tribe a teenager is associated with is labelled a "gang" or not has more to do with the socioeconomic status of the members than anything else.

plus the desire to cling to peers is large. and once you do that it reinforces the roup to have those who are deemed outside the group.
it happens across every aspect of socety.
look at cliques - what are they about other than endlessly defining who is a memeber by determining who is not.

and look at how some mumsnetters react to netmums with posting aggressively on their board, stereotyping then, being rude and make rude assumptions about them. think about how batty that is

it is about identity, defining yourself and belonging.
but because it may be their only defining group it is ramped up about 1000x

kungfupannda - I don't know if you are based in America? I am in the UK. I think there is a massive difference in the organised gangs in America that from reading, many young people do join out of fear. In the UK the word gangs is often challenged by professionals working in the field, because most young people are not in gangs as understood in America.

In the UK, gangs are really friendship groups that become territorial. They may span a range od age ranges taking in younger siblings and relatives. Some activities may be criminal with most or all gang members involved; but it is very different to gangs as understood in America.

Often in discussions like this, people will use the word gangs to mean very different things. And thus people's experiences of gangs in the UK may seem naive, when really they are talking about different things.

I am UK based. London, in fact. And I have been involved in some serious gang-related cases. I categorically disagree with the "friendship groups that become territorial" - some of the smaller, newer local groups may fall into that category but there are some extremely serious concerns about "proper" gangs in parts of London and other cities.

Okay - I live in a City and work with struggling, often chaotic families and I have never come across gangs in the American sense of organised groups. I used to do a similar job in London and never came across any there either. And have been present when criminologists and police have been very insistent that gangs here are not like organised gangs in America.

Accept that you may have. But the "gangs" I have known have been involved in crime and sometimes serious stuff as well. But they ahve not been organised gangs as in America.

Are you a youth worker?

I agree that its not only children from homes where there are alcohol/drug/mental health issues.

Lots of gang members do come from single parent households though, a single parent that doesnt work [and is on benefit] is stigmatised, so many single parents [about 50% i think] do work, but lots of them do that at the price of their teens being left to fend for themselves. I see teens hanging around the streets as mum wont be home until 7pm anyway.They are the teens that despite coming from a non benefit claiming household are still at serious risk of being drawn into gangs...and they often are.

Children of single parents are disadvantaged at the outset and IMO forcing their single mothers into low paid, unskilled work with non family friendly hours from when their children are aged 7 [will be soon aged 5-oct this year] isnt helping.

I know this government is 'shaking up' the welfare system but this is IMO a seriously bad move and only adds to the pressure that is already heaped upon single parents especially those living in inner cities.

On top of that essential services for at risk teens have been cut.

As i said before, this government really doesnt give a shit about these kids.

No, I'm a lawyer. I'm astonished that police officers are still saying that we don't have an organised gang culture. We may not have the scale of problem that the US has, but the infrastructure is in place here and we are pretty firmly on that road.

There are a couple of "big" gangs (not in London surprisingly) which are close to what people probably imagine an American gang to be like. These have supporting gangs linked to them - Croydon is a big area for these groups - and they are involved with particular sorts of offending. In turn, these London gangs have junior "feeder" gangs linked to them. There is active recruitment and there are recognised links between different gangs.

There certainly are some smaller, less organised gangs but the problem with these groups is that they often have aspirations to come to the attention of the bigger gangs.

I am genuinely surprised that the police aren't accepting this across the board. Even if I hadn't spent months at a time on long gang cases talking to specialist police and learning more about gangs and their culture, it would still be obvious from the caseload we have that there is far more going on than groups of kids getting together, naming their gang after the street they live in and deciding that they are at war with the next postcode.

Even the lower-level groups are up to their eyeballs in some pretty nasty stuff. One of my big cases involved a group that initially slipped under the police radar as they didn't have any direct links to any of the high-profile stuff. When they eventually rounded them up they found that they had been responsible for a sizeable percentage of the violent robberies in the borough and that their leader was actually tied in with one of the more serious gangs.

We have a real problem and it needs to be tackled with understanding of just how complex it is.