To think people complaining about a school church visit are silly?

[MarioandLuigi]

The school have a trip every year which the year 2's walk down to our local church - its not for a service but they have a look around, see whats in a church etc. It toes in with the R.E topic that year.

Some of the parents of this years year 2 are complaining and have started a petition they asked people to sign against the trip - there are three Mums who have organised it and they are all atheists.

Now I could understand if they were going for a service, to pray etc - but its just a look round type of visit (I know because I volunteer at the school and have been on a few of the previous trips. Also, The years 3's attend a synagogue and year 5 pupils attend a mosque. Its more of a learning experience because it ties in with what they are doing in school.

At the very least, if you dont like it, dont go - but a petition seems a step too far to me.

Gosh. I read the OP twice to make sure that wasn't the case [duh] so will go and read again, sorry!

To be truly tolerant of others and in part to avoid accidentally offending people then you must have a basic overview of their beliefs.

Although it was years ago I had a fantastic RE teacher who would say believe this, this is how worship, this is the food rules they follow. I truly believe this enriched my education and has helped me working with the public over the years.

It is a basic fact of life that there are people who believe in God and they worship in different ways. You don't have to believe and you don't have to worship but pretending there is no such thing as belief in God is narrow minded.

Aerial photos can show how the village town has surrounded a church etc but not why. Why at the time it was so important. I think learning the why helps develop understanding of just how lucky we are in modern day Britain. A valuable lesson at that.

But even if the school is not a faith one, that doesn´t mean that a trip to a local church shouldn´t happen, does it?

They still learn about religions don´t they?

TheSecondComing - I have said that I believe that state education should be secular. What exactly is intolerant in that?

As an atheist I'd actually have no problem with kids visiting a church to have a look, but usually if someone feels really strongly that this must go ahead that's a clue that it's more than just a trip. It's not supposed to be an opportunity to groom vulnerable children you know.

YANBU. And I say that as an atheist who believes education should be secular. However, that doesn't mean that kids should not be taught about religions. Although I think it is all hooey, religion is a major part of the world around us and it is important for them to understand later in life e.g. why a Jewish colleague might be unavailable after sundown on Fridays or whatever. And I can see how visits to various places of religious worship fit into that teaching. If they were going there to praise the great sky pixie, I would object.

Children are going to struggle to make sense of significant parts of British and European history if they receive an entirely secular education - the Reformation, voyages of discovery into the New World, Civil War, Restoration of the monarchy, foundation of democratic government, the Empire and countless other examples have a strong link to religious conflicts. By all means teach your children those are reasons why religion is a bad thing if you want - but they won't understand them at all if they don't know the basic differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

My local infants school does a trip to the church every year. One year it might be to do grave rubbing, another is related to RE so to actually see the font and altar and all the rest of it rather than just read about it, another year is to look at the architecture like arches and stained glass windows. Those trips are fine by me, as they tie in with what is being taught in school and if anything, I think the school are using the church a bit as we do have other buildings that could be used as examples of architecture but they know that the vicar will be chuffed to get them in so go there.

They go en masse for harvest festival as well. I wasn't too sure about it the first time DS1 was going, so I went along to help. There was very little religious content or even mention of religion, it was all focussed on how crops are important to us and the importance of sharing and helping out others in need. Yes those are basic Christian ideals, but then they hold true for society as well and I don't think it is bad that 6 year olds were being taught there are those less fortunate than themselves and it would be a nice thing to help them out (they did a food collection for the local mental health night shelter)

The only trips I ever objected to were the ones when DS2 would come home and tell me they had been to the church for a mini service and it was the first I had heard about it. No permission slips, no notice, they just went. Even as a raging atheist who has serious problems with organised religion, I was more pissed off that they had taken my child out of school without my knowledge than where they had gone.

Which reminds me, I must ring the vicar to get the phone number of the bouncy castle people he used for the church fete...

My muslim son has been to the local Church and a Gurdwara (which he particularly remembers for the excellent food). Hindu temple, Synagogue and Mosque to follow.

Whether or not you follow a particular religion it is important to recognise the historical and cultural impact religion has. You can't pretend religion doesn't have an effect in this society even if you don't believe in it yourself.

I have been on the trips before - its a massive chucrch so there are lots of things to see. It starts with the children being shown the various things - Font, Altar, Pulpit etc, then they do a quizsheet with questions like 'How many stain glass windows can you see', and they label a diagram of the church. They are there an hour tops.

I do not stop my children going on school trips to church, nor do I start petitions against it. BUT, at our (community) school, the church trips are an opportunity for the evangelical vicar to promote Christianity rather strongly, which does make the atheist parents like me twitch a bit. They do get evangelised, and they do pray on these trips, which doesn't happen when they go to the mosque or the synagogue. It's treated quite differently.

Also, one of the mums who is organising will be holding a book stall at the summer fete at the church in 2 weeks time, so its not like she doesnt want to go in there (I know because she has been asking for donations).

My children recently did an awful thing on a school trip to a church, it must be part of a national scheme. The trip was billed as just a trip to a church in the local city. They did a quiz (this was yr 5 and yr 6).

So they got questions like "Do you know how God performed miracles?" etc. And however they answered, it was twisted on the feedback form to comments like:
"You don't understand how the miracles could have happened without God doing them, but you would like to know more about this". It was truly dreadful, in the context of it being billed as just a trip to a church.

Porcamiseria Christmas and Easter are not Christian celebrations. They are ancient pagan celebrations. We have always celebrated the Winter solstice with a celebration of eating and drinking, using symbols like holly and ivy. There has always been a celebration of the Spring equinox which is linked to fertility and the renewal of life, hence the symbolism of eggs and chicks, etc. The Christians just came along and nicked them made them their own.

I would have no problem with an educational visit. The problem is that the staff in a mosque or synagogue will see it as an educational experience and understand that they are not there to convert, but some vicars might see Christianity as the default religion here, and go into service mode.

A secular education isnt the same as saying that religion and faith dont exist it is just not putting them into the school's curriculum.

My DCs went to a secular school when we lived in the Netherlands. The town we lived in was highly religious (there was a Catholic baker and a Protestant baker for example). However, in the Netherlands, religion is considered to be more of a personal matter so people of all faiths sent their children to the secular school. Interestingly, the secular school was in a building with a Protestant school and a Catholic school so the state was funding all three. This is typical Dutch pragmatism.

On the whole I am comfortable with my children learning about all kinds of religions at secondary school so long as one isnt allowed to dominate.

The influence in history of religion on the state is interesting but I'm not sure that is why many primary school church visits take place.

What do you need to teach to children to help them to avoid causing offence? Does teaching about the religion do this? How far do we need to go to avoid causing offence? These are complicated questions but I dont think they are answered at the primary school level.

When people come to my house to share their religious views my stock answer is 'no thank you, we are entirely secular'. On the whole I am not willing to have a theological debate on my doorstep. I believe that it is possible to be tolerant without participating.

YANBU. I'm another atheist who thinks education (and the rest of the state) should be secular. Being secular does not mean being anti-religion. The USA is a secular state. It does mean, not giving preferential treatment and status to religions.

Children should be taught about religions. The church visit described in the OP appears to fit this remit. I think these mums should keep their powder dry in case some real issue arises (e.g. visiting speaker presenting a faith as fact, that sort of thing, or if the sort of thing Fennel describes occurs).

TheSecondComing I want different things and accept that I get one vote but I also get one opinion as well. Having an opinion doesnt make me intolerant.

What I am intolerant of are the insulting, juvenile comments made early on in this thread. The parents referred to in the OP are wanting to start a petition. IMO this does not make them silly, ridiculous or twattish (all of which were used). If they dont get any signatures then the whole thing will die away. If they do get lots of signatures then the school should look into it.

I dont think that anyone is going to get hurt by a petition.

Not wanting to speak to those preaching on the doorstep is entirely different.

Of course you can't teach everything at primary school but what is taught at primary school provides the foundation for future learning.

There lots of things you can learn to try and avoid causing offence. Understanding why a Jew or Muslim wouldn't want a bacon sandwich. Why a Christian may have a mark on their head on Ash Wednesday. Why a Muslim is fasting for Ramadan to name but a few.

My children's education doesnt start and stop at the school gates. DH & I talk a lot with our DCs about many topics including cultural differences.

Secular education does NOT mean pretending religion doesn't exist. It's fine to teach that people believe things. What atheists object to is teaching them that your particular religious beliefs are true.

That's why secular education is opposed by religious people. Because when it comes down to it their religion will die out if they can't get to the kids young enough.

I think different definitions of secular education are in use here. Onagar you're saying it's fine to teach about beleifs, but Gnome doesn't want teaching about religion in schools at all. (That's what I've picked up anyway). We will talk at cross purposes if not talking about the same thing. I love the line that "religious people are" etc - great to lump who knows how many millions of people together and say they all want the same thing.

I think different definitions of secular education are in use here. Onagar you're saying it's fine to teach about beleifs, but Gnome doesn't want teaching about religion in schools at all. (That's what I've picked up anyway). We will talk at cross purposes if not talking about the same thing. I love the line that "religious people are" etc - great to lump who knows how many millions of people together and say they all want the same thing.

I am a Christian. I have no problem with a trip to local church being treated as a field trip like going to a long barrow or Stonehenge rather than a religious experience. I find it odd that it is somewhere people think children shouldn't be taken at all. The OP has made it clear there is no act of worship involved in the trip, having been on it before. Therefore I cannot see what objection anyone could have to it.

Iggi is quite right that not all 'religious people' are opposed to secularizing schools - the Accord Coalition includes such religious groups.

I suspect Onagar didn't really mean to imply 'all' but forgot the all-important qualifier in any of these debates 'some'.