to think a lot of "art" is in fact self indulgent tat?

[HattiFattner]

I went to an exhibit of students work this weekend.

Some of it was extraordinary and showed amazing talent.

Most of it was a load of tat. Not just that, but over thought, pretentious and had a royal element of intellectual self gratification about it....

I came away thinking that the "artists" were suffering from a bad case of the Emperors New Clothes - "Oh i took a neoclassical genre and use it to create an installation about teenaged angst in the 21st century and really you must be an intellectual to understand the use of light and space and ...."

• no love, you made a bowl. With a bunny in it.

And of course if you said that to their face "She just doesnt understand it..."

I would like a really Simon Cowell moment with some of them and to be able to call them out. But their argument is "Its "art" because I say it is."

Hey, on that basis I live in an "installation" called "Domestic Chaos"

Or maybe "Untitled IV" which makes it sound alltogether more worthy.

Why does art encourage everyone to feel like an expert? It's curious

i'm sure you don't get the same thing in other fields, ie people with a GCSE in biology criticising some piece of cutting edge experimental science because it's not as easy to understand as cutting up a frog.

All fields of endeavour need innovators, people who take risks and create something new in order to advance the field. Not all these risks will succeed, but they are all necessary in order for things not to stagnate.

If the general public's taste in art is where advancement in science stopped (ie impressionism 1900 ish) then we'd have no electricity, medicine, internet etc

Ofcourse art has to keep changing and evolving. Ofcourse you won't necessarily understand alot of the very theoretical cutting edge experimental stuff unless you are a professional in that field. But that doesn't mean it's crap or not art. it just means you don't understand it, and prefer to look at stuff you understand.

Hattifatner - never have I agreed with an OP as much as this one you have written. Brilliant and true. Remember Martin's Creed's 'Lights', winner of the Turner prize a few years back? The lights turned on and off again every few seconds. I remember people entering into some deep philosophical discussions about the installation's meaning. Seriously? Pretentious rubbish.

but ofcourse that doesn't mean that there aren't unimaginative charlatans about, copying the styling of conceptual art without any understanding of the processes. But then there's fakers in every field.

I think YAB a bit U. Obviously the Art means a lot to the creator even if you don't appreciate or understand it. I don't appreciate a lot of modern art or understand it. I am quite conservative in my taste but doesn't mean it's tat

ihateclowns

Before you dismiss Martin creed's work as pretentious rubbish, atleast have the intelligence to investigate the other few hundred pieces of art he's created and see how they provide a context for the turner prize piece. Would you dismiss an entire band's musical output on the basis of one song, heard out of context ?

I don't know if anyone has mentioned, but when I did an Art course at college we were encouraged to make work that "meant something", and if you dared to suggest that you did it because you liked how it looked then you were marked down.

So we tended to try and outdo each other with bizarre reasons for our work. It kept our marks up, and stopped us losing our minds. So bear that in mind with students' work.

I don't think anyone will ever be able to agree on what makes something "art" or not. And as there are so many layers to art anyway -

• what it is
• how it makes the viewer feel
• why it was created
• how it was made

etc

Noone will ever agree in what constitutes great art either. Makes the world more interesting really.

When I was at art college there was aman who was obsessed with drawing penii. His work area was right by a door that you had to pass through to get to the technicians workroom aswell and I used to have to avert my eyes else I would be confronted with an obscure painting of someones third eye. i found this far more disturbing than some of the shallow vacuous shit I witnissed

i'm sure you don't get the same thing in other fields, ie people with a GCSE in biology criticising some piece of cutting edge experimental science because it's not as easy to understand as cutting up a frog.

I think it is more like people drawing a line between quantum physicists and homeopaths who wibble on about the relevance of quantum psychics to their magical water memory thing. Lay people may be well aware that they know little about art\quantum physics, but feel qualified to be able to tell\work out the difference between an expert in the field (regardless of how much they understand\appreciate their work) and a Seller of Snake Oil, albeit one who may be as keen to pull the wool over their own eyes as much as anybody else's.

Mind you there are enough people who reject the science behind vaccination (to give but one example) to underscore the concept that artists are not exclusively picked on in this regard compared to other fields.

I'm an ESL\EFL teacher, no shortage of criticism from the lay people in my area either. Not all of it unwarranted either. No pointing at the fancy words that have been liberally sprinkled over a glossy programme of study can fool all of the bullshit radars, in all of the people, all of the time.

Please don't swear at me. Because what you wrote is stupid, that's how come I can patronise you!

That Martin Creed piece is not shit and prententious. It's not to your taste obviously, but it's by no means shit. What other piees of Martin Credd's work do you know then? and why do yo think it has no philosophical interpretation?

interesting post fast web, ta, food for thought.

Actually you get the same thing in music too don't you? People so certain in their judgement that a certain type of music is not music just because they don't like it and feel more comfortable in older more familiar music.

"a lot of silly middle aged women (for it was often them) seeking "enlightenment" and their lost youth by trying to create a concept with bare minimum of skill in the creative process."

Blimey you're a charmer aren't you.

The student exhibition I was talking about was an MA exhibition for the royal college of art.... The students were student age and a mix of male and female... you don't have to be a middle aged "silly" woman to turn out art of dubious merit.

On the basis of your last remark I retract any earlier comments and return a YABU.

I work with artists, galleries on a daily basis and have done for 20 or so years. I can quite honestly reassure people that the vast majority of artists are not bullshitting charlatans laughing all the way to the bank. they are serious passionate determined people working hard in an intensely competitive arena. The one's that become successful and high profile are usually in that position because they are quite brilliant. If they were "shit" they wouldn't have got to where they are, believe me. For every prententious charlatan, there's 99 genuine hardworking intelligent artists trying to make work that they believe in.

I think it is really patronising to assume it is the mature students are the unskilled and untalented ones. My observations were that they were usually the naturally gifted students but hadn't been able to pursue their ambitions earlier due to financial or family constraints. Age usually doesn't have a bearing on artistic ability

Hatti you have set yourself up here as an authority on the creative process and what is and what isn't worthy. Your comment about middle aged women is ignorant but telling

mapley

Mapley, you know nothing about me yet you infer I am stupid. Does that it make you feel better that you imagine you are superior to me? Go ahead.

Is art not subjective? Why should I like Martin Creed's work because you say so? Why can I not say that Light is shit and pretentious? Because you say so? Seriously. I am actually more familiar with Creed's work than you imagine, but even in context, I think Lights is shit. Even if we suppose that it was a commentary on the public's disillusion with morden art, I still do not like it. It does not speak to me. That is my subjective opinion. I will not sit here and discourse on the merits of Creed's work. Suffice to say I think there are many, many more talented artists out there today.

This is really what I do not understand with people like you Mapley, if anyone dares to dislike a piece like Light, they are committing heresy? Why?

aw shit!!! I am one of those middle aged mature student fine art BA owners...

bumbles off to create some twee water colour of a beach < whistles

I think i'd rather see what a load of middle aged women could come up with than a bunch of teens who have a tendency to copy each other....at least they have life experience to draw on (see what i did there).

Yes "reallyshouldnotwearjods" - off to the village hall to join the Sunday club for you.....

I don't think I'm superior to you, I just think what you said was stupid. Your last makes more sense to me. Fair enough, you can not like a piece of work , you can subjectively decide it doesn't speak to you, you can disagree with and discuss it's stated and imagined intentions, but to say it is "shit" will always be stupid. I'd happily discuss Martin Creed with you, but if you don't want to then we'll have to leave it there. I do agree there are more talented artists, he's not a favourite of mine , but hey that's totally subjective. He's not shit though.

One of my oldest dearest friends is an artist and has had varying degrees of success (and income!) over the years. I love her whole attitude she has been penniless at times and flush at others. She once bought an orchard instead of saving for a rainy day and a lot of our friends ed and said she was silly etc but when we were all in the orchard having a picnic on a glorious day we were hugely envious. Her work is beautiful imo and so is she, a day in her company is like a holiday I always leave her feeling optimistic and happy.

have to change into my crimplene dress and straw hat, ride my bike with the basket on the front, and stroke the neighbourhood cats on the way, I love living in a pigeon hole x

:o