TO POINT OUT Todays news. Dav Cameron thinks we dont trust the TORIES with the NHS. I suspect the PM is right about that.

[ScousyFogarty]

The Tories opposed the NHS at its conception. People think they are trying to privatise it by the back door. (Its a well known Tory trick)

Do you mumsnetters trust Cameron and the rather puzzled Lansley with the NHS? The Minister of Health does NOT seem to understand his own plan.

And many people seem to distrust the bits they do understand.

we've already given them a chance, by letting them get into power. We have to see what they can do, and possibly help by pointing out if it's wrong or stupid.

Don't worry about Wallace and Gromit running the country, their coalition won't last for ever, and we might get something different next time.

"Stealth" privatisation of the NHS has been going on since about 2004 (eg private hospitals taking NHS patients - there was another thread about this recently - to reduce waiting lists). What is proposed now is an acceleration of an existing trend, rather than a new principle.

If it was OK in principle under Labour, then the Tories are no less trustworthy.

That view doesn't however let them in any way off the hook about other principles, such as free at point of use, and (most importantly) standards of clinical governance and care.

''If it was OK in principle under Labour, then the Tories are no less trustworthy''

This defies logic.

Where is the safeguarding of clinical governance and care? It's one of the major criticisms of this re-organisation.

They need time to implement their changes....its going to take more than a few months to clear up 10 years of mess....
Labour are very good at shouting about the opposition - but don't actually verbalise any alternative......

Waiting lists came down dramatically under Labour. They implemented the 18week guarantee. It has been abolished by Cameron/Clegg. Cameron DID say there would be 'no top down restructuring of the NHS'. '10 years of mess' - my arse. Trust the Tories? Anyone remember Riven? Are you mad? I vote for another party, not Labour btw

uselesscahms: the logic is that the introduction of private providers into the NHS was done by Labour. Now if you're saying Labour wasn't trustworthy either, that is also a logical position. But saying one party can do X and be trustworthy, but another party, doing the same X, isn't - then that is illogical.

At present, the clinical governance issues are a concern to doctors (details on BMA website), but they are equally applicable to the current Labour-introduced system. I am concerned about the strength of the system, but it's not a Tory only matter.

aliceliddell: ready to be corrected, but weren't Riven's issues matters which fell under the responsibility of her local Council? I never knew which party had control there.

aliceliddell Yes 10 years of MESS - what do you call it??

I will trust who I like thanks...as I mentioned before these are MY opinions which I am entitled to!
Not all people have the same leftie/liberal/guardianista mindset thank Christ...

The 18 week guarantee was a joke. You might get to see someone with 18 weeks but it doesn't mean anything is actually done.
So 18 weeks for a referral then another long wait be for a MMR or other tests and then yet another wait for results to get back to the refering doctor and then another long wait for a referral for care of the elderly to see if you are up to having the op and then join the waiting list for the op itself.

Can anyone tell me why they are happy with this system and dont want reform?

The Tories have mishandled this so badly it really doesn't bode well for the future

After promising no top down changes they've introduced just that, Dave and Nick signed up for these reforms in the full knowledge of what they entailed. Having seen the reaction from people at the sharp end and the general public they are both currently in a feverish race to the bottom to see who can backpedal the hardest and are in the curious position of trying to see who can take the most credit for distancing themselves from legislation they themselves fully endorsed only a few months ago.

A comedy of errors from 2 overly promoted lightweights, we and the NHS deserve better.

btw if you're only response is going to be some reflexive knee jerk whining about Gordon Brown and Nuliebore etc etc then pls bore off. I didn't vote for Gordon, am glad he's gone and think we are all obligated to take the coalition to task rather than just making mealy mouthed comments about the disaster NuLab eventually became and how at least they're not in power any more etc etc etc.

If the best that can be said for that PR lightweight heir to blair Dave is that at least he's not Gordon then we really are in trouble.

"Can anyone tell me why they are happy with this system and dont want reform?"

Sorry, but did I miss the bit where anyone claimed to be happy with the current system and didn't want reforms to be made? Strawman nonsense.

Just because the NHS is in need of reform doesn't mean we have to accept any reform we're offered (or actually not offered as it wasn't in any manifesto)

so you want reform but dont want the tory reform. So tell me what labour were purposing to do to sort out the NHS? Or the type of reform that you would agree with and now this is going to be achieved.

My experiences with the NHS over the past 12 months have convinced me that it needs radical change. I am not remotely dewy-eyed about it. I have encountered incompetent GPs, arrogant/rude consultants, dirty wards, indifferent nursing and wholly inept bureaucracy. All very sad.
Are the Tories the right people to do it? Don't know. I only care that treatment is free and available to all. Couldn't give a stuff who provides it.

"so you want reform but dont want the tory reform. So tell me what labour were purposing to do to sort out the NHS?"

Yaaaaawn.

Good work proving the point I was making above about dull asinine tribal politics, you couldn't have done a better job if you tried. I'm not the Shadow Health secretary or a spokesman for the Labour party (or even a Labour voter) so I'm not quite sure why I'm being asked to justify their health policy.

"Or the type of reform that you would agree with and now this is going to be achieved."

I'm probably not the best person to formulate radical reform of the NHS, I work in Fashion and bizzarely Health legislation isn't my forte.

Are you implying that as I don't magically have the solution to the problems faced by the NHS up my sleeve / secreted on my person I'm not allowed to oppose the Tory plans?

so it a nut shell you dont know what you want to achieve or how to go about achieving it. You dont have to know how to achieve it but you do have to have a view as to whether or not the opposition has a better plan. So do they?

I know sod all about how to go about reforming the NHS as well but i do know i want a better system than we currently have. Do i trust dave to provide it? Well lets just say i am prepared to give him the chance especially as labour dont seem to want to put forward an alternative.

"so it a nut shell you dont know what you want to achieve or how to go about achieving it. "

More strawman rubbish, I said nothing of the kind. That kind of weak mischaracterisation of other posters viewpoints is pretty poor form imo. Like yourself I want to see less cost inflation, less waste, less beauracracy, shorter waiting lists and better care. How to achieve that is not my area of expertise and with respect I'm not convinced it's your either; you've admitted you know sod all too so I'm not quite sure of the point you're making tbh.

"Do i trust dave to provide it? Well lets just say i am prepared to give him the chance especially as labour dont seem to want to put forward an alternative."

Seeing as Dave himself no longer trusts the plan he and his government put forward I'm not particularily disposed to placing my faith in his ability to reform probably the most important service the government provides.

Your point that as Labour don't appear to have all the answers then we should be happy with what ever half arsed, overly rushed and ill thoughtout radical reforms Dave is going to try and push through seems pretty simpleminded to me.

labour don't appear to have all the answers then we should be happy with what ever half arsed, overly rushed and ill thought-out radical reforms Dave is going to try and push through seems pretty simpleminded to me.

I would rather be simpleminded than do nothing which seems to be the only alternative on offer. I dont know if labour have a better plan as they seem to want to stay very quite on the matter.

In an ideal world i would like to see an across party agreed program of reform but politicians from all party's prefer to point score against each other rather than working together to achieve something worthwhile.

cantspel, I don't believe the reforms would necessarily allow a GP to order an MRI directly (you realise MMR is something entirely different, a vaccination for children?) - at the moment the GPs in the main refer to services which have been commissioned by the PCT. Under the reforms they would commission the services themselves, and so might wish to commission an MRI clinic into which they could directly refer, if that was deemed appropriate by both them and the provider, i.e. the hospital. But equally that could happen now.

I'm very sorry about the pain your dad has suffered. Bizarrely, my grandmother is in the opposite situation in that the consultant is pushing for a hip replacement which the family do not think is warranted because it's unlikely to improve the quality of her life very much, if at all.

I would rather be simpleminded than do nothing which seems to be the only alternative on offer.

If you're setting the bar for acceptance of radical reforms of the NHS as "it's better than nothing" then you're setting it pretty low.

btw a lot of people, including a lot of health professionals, are of the opinion that the Tory plans are worse than doing nothing and will cause the NHS even more problems than it faces already.

"In an ideal world i would like to see an across party agreed program of reform but politicians from all party's prefer to point score against each other rather than working together to achieve something worthwhile."

I agree, altho you were doing a fair bit of partisan point scoring yourself.