To think books should have age certificates

[mrswhiskerson]

There is a debate going on at the minute about certifying music videos which I do agree with , I love music videos and some of them can be real works of art but I do not want my ds watching close ups of rihannas bum boobs or crotch. I also shouldn't have to not be able to watch the music channel while I am doing my ironing for fear of ds watching three am a
half minutes of soft porn.

What has surprised me though is no one ever mentions books. I have been an avid reader since childhood and some of the things I read were to old for me a notable book was American psycho which I read at fifteen after the film came out , it really disturbed me . Isn't the imagination worse than what you see? There is nothing in place to stop young people buying horrific books from waterstones and the like and these books could have a negative effect.

I also think there's a big difference between reading about (eg) a prostitute being murdered/ someone getting chainsawed to death, and playing a video game where you are actually the character doing that. Tbh, I think that is so fucked up I cant even start on what people who want to play those games are like.

There are huge differences between a book and a music video. To start with it's far easier for a young child to accidentally see an inappropriate video on MTV than to accidentally read a disturbing book; an older sibling/ adult can read an "adult" book in front of a toddler without the toddler having any idea of its content, which can't be said for watching films, videos or computer games; a book puts things into a context- it isn't just near naked women cavorting to increase sales, there is a plot and reason (even if a poorly executed one) in a book.

When I was younger I was reading a book a day, but on child tickets the library would only give you 4 (these were the days of cardboard tickets). A librarian took pity on me and, at around the age of 10, I was given 8 adult tickets.

A few months later, someone decided that only adult tickets could be used to borrow "adult" books. Adult tickets were for 16+ year olds. Agatha Christie? Jane Austin? Ellis Peters? Really? GCSE set texts unsuitable until you're old enough to start A-levels?

Thank goodness for those Adult tickets, I think otherwise I would have given up on my voracious reading habit.

Just coming on again to say that I wish I taught some of your children. I would LOVE to think that any of my parents had had this discussion or thought. Sadly, I suspect that most of my kids have never been in a library without a teacher taking them and think it highly unlikely that they've ever seen their parents reading (never mind reading books to check their suitability for teens).

God, am going to pack it all in and work somewhere else.

p.s. remember that by the age of fifteen, most kids will have read a Shakespeare play (sex? violence?) and will be moving on to Of Mice and Men or similar. I also suspect that, because of your interest in their reading habits, most of your children will be in the top sets and thus will be looking at more challenging books as well- which almost certainly contain some adult themes.

I don't know about giving books an age certificate but all books/media products could do with the same kind of note about content as I have found that helpful and when it isn't there I have sometimes been alarmed as I have thought it was okay to play a certain song to my kids then suddenly heard something I wish I had know about beforehand. Also recently with a book I borrowed from the library, I would have preferred to have had a note about content so that I could have been more informed.

more informed and therefore more able to make an informed decision.

cant, I think Maus is a masterpiece because ffs it's about the Shoah and it OUGHT to haunt and disturb. I hated Life is Beautiful and The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas because they soft-pedalled it too much. That said, the Holocaust gallery at the Imperial War Museum has an age restriction...

sieglinde my son is just getting into reading more adult books. i want him to read about the holocaust and understand mans inhumanity to his fellow man. He has read and seen the film of The Boy in the Striped Pajamas but it was a too sanitized version of a horrible period of human history. I am hoping that Maus will be just the first of such books he will want to read.

I first read Primo Levi's Is This a Man? when I was about 13. It has stayed with me ever since...I agree that if parents have a problem with content then it is their prerogative to ban a given book, but personally I'd rather take an interest in what my kids are reading and talk about why particular representations etc are problematic

tortu is right on the money, I think; friend of mine just did a little piece of research with 16-17 year olds and discovered that most of them don't read at all; girls read a little bit more than boys, but mostly what girls read are celebrity mags. The focus actually needs to be more on encouraging them to read things that are complex and raise difficult issues than on content (I don't particularly want my daughter to get her ideas about femininity from celebrity mags, any more than i want her to identify with Tess of the d'Urbervilles...)

I dont think it is necessary. Just read the blurb or even the book itself if you are worried. My kids (boys 12, 10) read about 3 books a week each. If they only read kids books we would have run out years ago. If anyone has any good suggestions for pre teens who have done all the cherub, young bond, patterson, harry potter, dan Browns etc please let me know. Am running out of ideas!

drivingmisscrazy I had forgotten Primo Levi's Is This a Man? so thankyou for the reminder and i have just ordered a copy to re read and then give to my son to read.

What I think brilliant about Maus is that because it's a graphic novel it admits its own lameness as a true record of unimaginable horror. And yet it IS horrifying, because the little sketched mice look so utterly vulnerable.

I took my then-nine-year-old around the said Holocaust gallery at the Imperial War Museum. I thought it was better to be overwhelmed than underwhelmed. Some things are too much for any human being, and they still have to be told.

cantspel it's actually a very humane book, perfect for a 13 year old interested in such things...glad to have jogged the memory.

But I don't think anyone is saying that children shouldn't be allowed access to any adult books, are they? Just that books with disturbing content should carry a warning, similarly to films.

TheBride, the argument that a book is active not passive, doesn't that mean that the reader is more engaged in it than a film viewer, and therefore the impact of shocking scenes would be greater? And I'm also not convinced by 'a reader can see what's coming and stop reading' - not only is that not always true, but that's putting the onus on the young reader to self-censor, which - again, we don't expect that with films, etc.

Honestly, I cannot see that there's a real distinction here. I think we just all think of Reading As Good and therefore shouldn't be subject to any restrictions.

I think the difficulty is that, instead of just having a warning about content, the books would have an age symbol on them (12, 15, 18 etc.). That age symbol might only be advisory - but people will start to use it is a hard and fast rule. So a 10yo would not be allowed to choose a '12' book at school, or the library would prevent a 14yo from borrowing a '15' book.

So the whole complex, exciting, challenging world of literature is summarised by a numeric id, which is determined by...well, who exactly and how? An independent commission, or the publishers (who might be tempted to veer on the side of safety to avoid being sued by irate parents).

BarBeasty has an excellent point:
"To start with it's far easier for a young child to accidentally see an inappropriate video on MTV than to accidentally read a disturbing book; an older sibling/ adult can read an "adult" book in front of a toddler without the toddler having any idea of its content, which can't be said for watching films, videos or computer games; a book puts things into a context- it isn't just near naked women cavorting to increase sales, there is a plot and reason (even if a poorly executed one) in a book"

Ps, I'm getting some good ideas of books to buy in for the "Teenagers and Adults: not suitable for younger readers" section of the shop!

I've ordered Maus and If this is a man, thanks for the suggestions. Anymore would be most welcome.

ditto.
I've just ordered them for the shop!

I think it is already difficult enough for bright children to get the right books out of the school libraries: dd got terribly bored reading the same babyish books over and over again, because the school librarian would only let her have the books considered appropriate for her year group.

My DDs school won't let KS3 pupils take the A (adult) books out unless a parent signs a form giving permission.

It seems to be a good system.

the proper Anne Frank's Diary, of course - fabulous for the early teenage years; also just realised that it should be IF This is a man ; for the long shadow of the holocaust I very much liked Amos Oz's The Zig-Zag Kid - suitable for a good reader, I would have thought.

I don't think they should have age classifications as such, though dividing them up into teen books and younger children's books is a good idea, at least to demonstrate to 11 year olds (if any of them were like me) where to find the good stuff :)

It might be an idea for some books to indicate what age group might be interested in the story, I think this is more useful for 'chapter books' for 5 -11 year olds where a child might have an advanced reading age but...well, my 5 year old could probably read Harry Potter just about but would be upset by some of the content of, say the 3rd book onwards. Of course children differ as to what they are interested in but just as a general guide, if a book said "5-8 year olds" I'd know it was going to be ok for her.

As an aside, I think it's a superficial mistake to say films like TBITSP or LIB are too soft on the Holocaust. For me, these films brought out the full horror not by showing violence but by showing how mundane evil can be and contrasting it with love, humour, tenderness and innocence.

sorry, Zig Zag kid is David Grossman - his See Under: Love is wonderful, but perhaps a bit too complex emotionally for a 13 year old?

I am glad a few people see the point i was trying to make. It seems some posters think I am against children reading or I think we should be telling people what to do which is not the case at all. I read all sorts when I was young and like I have said before my parents were not readers and you can not get the full picture from the synopsis on the back therefore they did not know I was reading things I shouldnt with the exception of being found two chapters in to once is not enough by jaquline susann . My step dad took it away because the content was not suitable for a child , i did want to read it even more but now I am older I understand why he did it
. The only books I am talking about are the ones with sex and violence for tittilation and shock value rather than anything meaningful or any moral message , I have never at any point in this thread said we should clear the shelves of history books and burn shakespeare in case it affects our childs minds.
A note on the back saying this book contains explicit sex and violence would make you think twice about letting a developing child read it would it not?
Reading may be a active activity and yes you can stop if you have read something that offends or upsets you but you cant unread it , just like if you watch something nasty there is no way of unseeing it.

Also I just wanted to say I am in no way reffering to books specifically written for children and young teens like many seem to think, of course each childs reading age is different and it would be a terrible idea to dictate what they are and are not ready to read. I am talking about adult books with adult themes .

I would love to know what you all think of the twilight saga and if you would be willing to let your teen daughter read it because even though there is hardly any sex , the book has a very weird idea of relationships and romanticises a very old man stalking and ultimately completely controlling a sixteen year old girl.