to complain to the ambulance service?

[lurcherlover]

I genuinely don't know if IAMBU here, so all thoughts welcome...

I was out walking DDog today with DS (7 months) in his back carrier when my mobile goes. It's DH, who is round at my parents' house as my dad has phoned our house. Dad's had an accident and I need to get there straight away (luckily they only live 5 mins from ours and I hadn't walked far). I get there and find my Dad in absolute agony with what is clearly a dislocated shoulder (the deformity was obvious). He'd tripped and fallen in the garden. My mum was at work (Dad's retired) so he'd phoned our house. He was in shock, grey and clammy, and in unbearable pain. Naturally, we phoned 999 for an ambulance. We were told that as it wasn't a "life threatening injury" an ambulance wouldn't be sent out and we would have to get him to A&E ourselves. If we didn't have our own transport, a "non-emergency ambulance" (ie the minibuses they send out for little old ladies to go to the chiropodist in) would be sent in approximately 2-4 hours' time. So we had to virtually carry my Dad to our car between us and drive him to hospital, with him groaning in pain.

I was fuming - my Dad was in agony, and paramedics would've been able to give him morphine (which the dr did as soon as we got there). Plus, I was worried the injury wasn't stable, and putting him in the car to drive to hospital might do more damage. Added to this the fact that luckily DH wasn't working today - if he had been, I would have had to somehow get my Dad in the car by myself, then get him and DS out at the other end. So I'm thinking of complaining and saying an ambulance should have been sent. Opinions please?

YANBU, in the situation you describe op, I would have called an ambulance as well!

I had a bike accident and knocked myself unconscious for who nows how long(!) last year and when I came round and figured out where I was, I pedaled 3 miles home before getting a taxi to A&E. I was in alot of pain and confused as to what had happened but never dreamed of calling 999. When I got to A&E the first question the nurse asked was why didn't I call an ambulance

Even if you had got an ambulance it may well not have had a paramedic who could give morphine so paracetamol/ gas and air would have been the only options.

I think they were wrong to agree that it was dislocated , no one knew for definite what the extent of the injury was?
They pick up drunks in ambulances, would of thought a VERY painful injury is more deserving

YANBU to have phoned an ambulance but it's not their fault there wasn't one available. What would complaining actually achieve? It would just take their time (and therefore money) to investigate. But it's not like they are suddenly going to think "oh that's a good point, maybe we should have more ambulances" - I think they would've done that already if they had the resources!

It was really bad luck, but compared to other situations it wasn't as much of an emergency - yes, there are risks of complications or permanent injury, but generally not as instant and life threatening as, say, a heart attack, or a baby having a fit, or a severe asthma attack, or... the list of situations potentially more deserving than a dislocation is massive, and presumably the ambulances were taken up with some of them.

I would have called an ambulance, based on advice given to my in a first aid class, which was "if you do not feel you can safely get the person to hospital then ring an ambulance". However, if they were totally overrun with emergencies then they wnbu for asking you to make your own way if you possibly could

YANBU to have called at all and I am shocked they refused to send an ambulance given the shock/clammy skin etc. Interestingly a former a&e doctor said upthread that they would have expected an ambulance to be sent to. I can only assume they were inundated with calls and had no capacity at all?

I don't think yabu, how did they know there were no broken bones? I would have been shocked too. I wouldn't complain though, it probably won't get you anywhere. Hope your dad is on the mend now

I did a little unscientific non-peer reviewed survey for you last night, for honest reporting I feel that we must admit alcohol was involved in discussion.
Participants : Me: ex Cardiac Nurse
Friend 1: Paramedic
Friend 2: Trainee Paramedic
Friend 3: A/E Nurse
Friend 4: Army Medic
Friend 5: Army Medic

All 6 of us would have called an ambulance, reasons given been moving him incorrectly = nerve damage, and already showing signs of going in to shock. And biggie for all of us why did he fall?
He had to fall with some force to dislocate unless this was something his shoulder did regularly, and if it did you wouldn?t have posted, or there was an underlying issue with his joints/tendon/ligaments.
So why did he fall? Dizzy, black out etc?

We did agree that all of us were looking at it from a worse case scenario [and the possibility of been sued], and looked at it from a ?if it was my Mum/Dad?, or ?if we were walking down the street and fell over the person?.

Still all in favour of 999, younger person, not grey or clammy stick in a cab, if not family [or they were a prat or you were only starting your pint, they were joking I think] younger person grey clammy still stick in a cab but go with them and bring sick bag.

So none of us thought you were UR for calling 999, all felt that if you did want to complain you need to do it to the right person, i.e.: not the call handler, but your GP and Simon Burns, Minister of State for Health and point out that this is how cuts are affecting those who need the help most.

The discussion then degenerated in to a how we should charge anyone who calls 999 as a hoax [both financially and criminally] anyone who voms in ambie due to alcohol. And hanging was too good for anyone who deliberately attacks a member of the health profession when they are doing their job, one of the paramedics colleagues is current on sick leave after been punched in the face repeatedly for daring to treat a teen who himself has been beat up for chatting up one of the local thugs ex-girlfriends. Didn?t even make the local news Sorry went on mini rant there. . .

That should have been 'if you did want to complain you need to do it to the right person, i.e.: not the call handler, but your MP and Simon Burns, Minister of State for Health'

I don't think yabu, if your dad was in shock and you don't know how to treat it properly then that can be life threatening. I can totally believe it though. My nan had an attack brought on by diabetes which makes it look like she is having a stroke My mum called an ambulance and it did come but the ambulance people had a go at my mum and said she should not of called an ambulance. My nan looked like she was having a stroke, unbelievable. However my son was diagnosed with epilepsy at 4 and we have had to call ambulances so many times and they have been fantastic.

I'm amazed at how many people here think the op is being unreasonable... personally I would have been concerned about someone elderly (I'm assuming he's at least over 60) going grey and clammy after an injury. Can't shock induce a heart attack? I'm not a medical person but that would be my concern. Also, can't a dislocated joint cause problems for circulation if a blood vessel is trapped or damaged? Or did they establish there was still a pulse in his hand and were satisfied that wasn't a concern.

I'd still be writing a letter asking for clarification. I'm quite surprised everyone else thinks that's not on.

I would say YANBU for having phoned an ambulance in this case. Am surprised they didn't send one but am guessing if they did not have a spare team available then it might have been the right advice as you would get to hospital quicker than they could get to you iyswim.

If your Dad had been having chest pain then I imagine they would have sent a paramedic in one of the cars/motorbikes to assist while diverting other teams to you so an ambulance was available.

I dfon't think YABU to write and ask why you were given this advice - perhaps not a complaint initially - after all if your Dad had been having a heart attack and it was straight choice between an ambulance crew attending him or someone with a dislocated shoulder I am pretty sure you'd want your dad to have priority.

O

I think an ambulance was a reasonable request based on your father's condition and the fact that nobody had actually seen what happened. An elderly man, grey and sweaty who has ?tripped or ?fallen/collapsed should be seen asap.

ive been in this situation and it would depend on wether the person was an elderly person usually in good health or perhaps already has health issues. i used to have a kneecap dislocate frequently it was agonising but automatically went by car to A&E each time, but when my mother with heart and lung problems would get ill (in her 70s) i would definately ring for an ambulance in case they needed to use their training and equipment to help her unless it was something like a foot or ankle injury shes very frail so it would be quicker to carefully lift her and get there to A&E asap having said that i understand if its someone elderly while you would be very worried especially when its something so painfull as shock can set in very fast

I think your request for an ambulance was entirely reasonable, I would certainly have done the same in the circumstances.

Comparing the injury of an elderly man (when the cause is unknown )to a similar injury in a sportsman or child is ridiculous.

Hope your dad has fully recovered.

OP hasn't actually said how old he is, my retired 60 year old dad would have more in common with an injured rugby played that an 80 year old lady with a broken hip, so all comparisons are ridiculous without more information.

I don't think you were being unreasonable, but neither were they. You were obviously shaken up but your dad had called, and waited for, you not an ambulance - so there is obviously an element of judgement call. Given that you were there and able to take him to hospital, it does seem the most sensible advice. It is hard to see people we love in pain, sometimes harder than being in it ourselves, so the difference in judgement between an injured man, his daughter and the ambulance operator who hears worse things countless times an hour is entirely understandable, without anyone being wrong.

Had he phoned for an ambulance, been on his own in obvious pain and unable to do anything else to get himself to hospital, the ambulance/operator might have behaved differently - I don't think it is fair to the ambulance service for people on here to ignore the fact you were there and discuss a blanket rule for falls in elderly people, your presence did make a difference. I hope he makes a full recovery, but I can't see what good a complaint would do.

I think they were unreasonable.

I fell down the stairs years ago and dislocated my shoulder. The ball at the top of my arm had come away from its socket and was where my elbow should be! I've never ever known pain like it.

Two ambulance men had to get me into the ambulance - one had to help me walk and the other had to carry my arm.

There's no way I could have got into a car. I'd still be at the bottom of the stairs now.

Pissed me off, as well, because it was Saturday night and all the violent drunks were in Casualty, all treated before me as they were bleeding (and fighting.)

Even if the Ambulances were inundated it is still worth following it through. It's not ok to shrug and say 'well its tough really' because this was not an ok situation. Are people really that apathetic nowadays that we accept our lot without at least questioning as to why it happened?

I'm frightened to call an ambulance in case they think I'm a time waster.

I had a massive asthma attack last year and still only called NHS 24. They blue lighted out the ambulance, and then me to Hospital in it.

I've had two big attacks since, and still didn't call, as I'm terrified of the Hospital I'd get taken to.
Once I got myself admitted the next day, and the other time, I controlled it at home.

But everyone is missing the point that he was not lying on the ground unconscious and was stable enough to move from where he fell to get to a phone to ring the OPs DH in the first place

Or is it me that has misread it?

But he was in agony, and pale and clammy.

YABU the service told you why they would not send an ambulence, you now want to complain about the service not sending an ambulence due to there own policy that they then stood by and explianed - why would you complain?

If you are not happy with ambulences not being able to come out to none emergency situations then contact your MP and take it up with them and see if you can get the situation changed so that there are more ambulences and they can cover none emergency situatiuons