I'm not being UR right? Friends DC behaviour.

[youarekidding]

I have been friends with X for 20 years, met at secondary school. I spent a few years abroad and just before I returned friend moved 1 hour away for her DH's job. I am a LP and we both work. We see each other every few weeks and talk on phone/ text a lot.

I have DS 6 and she has DD's 5 (6 in 2 weeks) & 7.

Due round here today and DS out playing when arrived so comes over to see them and I go outside. DS wants to introduce them to his friends and tells them that is Y from my school - pointing over the road. The 5yr old says really rudely 'Do I go to your school, do I know her?' DS said 'no, she goes dancing too like you'. 5 yr old replies (again rudely) 'do I know her?, no, so do I care?, I don't want to talk about it' DS looks at me I say just ignore it and tell me instead. The oldest wanted to play out but wasn't allowed as youngest said she wanted to go in so I bought DS in too.

They created a mess as expected and when hot lunch nearly ready I said can they just spend the 10 minutes picking toys up. (were going out for afternoon.)

Off they trot - DS and 7 yr old start putting stuff in boxes haphazardly! and 5 yr old sits down refusing to help. Both oldest tell her to help but she says she needs a drink so leaves room and comes to me. I tell her of course, help tidy and I'll make them all one to have with dinner - I was taking things from the oven at the time. She returns to DS room and says loudly enough for the street to hear to DS 'Your mum is lazy, she should pick toys up if it bothers her that much, I hate her stupid rules.'

This upset DS who comes to me. I kissed him, told him to ignore it and that she was mistaking me for someone that cared. (her DD appeared at this point and heard me and so stropped through a huge tantrum!)

Now this is where I was . My friend told me not to be so mean. That her DD was only joking and I shouldn't be telling DS to ignore her DD again whilst hugging her DD and offering her sweets and ice cream when out if shes good stops the tantrum.

I said I wasn't, I had not said anything to her DD, that is her job to disapline her hint hint . Things were tense for a few minutes but I served dinner and chat just took off again.

IANBU right - if a child chooses to be rude ( and I believe she knows she was) then they have to expect people to react badly to it?

We have discussed camping in the summer holidays together in my 5 man tent but I think I'll be suggesting 2 tents would be better - its not that big as it is especially if picking your own mess up is criminal.

OP, is there any reason you know of why the younger daughter is treated so differently from the elder? Anything that her mum is 'trying to make up for'? I've seen otherwise sensible women do this before.

Not that I know of. The elder DD was always a 'happy and easy' baby whereas the younger DD was 'more demanding' so whether its just a pattern she's got into?

You either have to say something or run for the hills. If the kid isn't shown how to behave appropriately now, at 5, she is going to be an absolute nightmare as she gets older. Maybe your friend just doesn't know how to cope with her?

Honestly? The younger child sounds quite shy, awkward around people and as though she's finding it difficult to adapt to new people/situations/rules. Yes, she was being rude and yes she should learn to experience the natural consequences of that ie you being upset with her, but in the context of understanding that some kids do find any sort of unfamiliar situation very challenging and 'act out' their hostility.

Camping needs thinking through in this light - 'holidays' can be incredibly stressful for kids who like familiarity especially if there are few of the usual things they use to ground themselves eg people they see every day, zoning out to TV.

She might just be a brat, of course, but sounds like there's a bit more to it than that.

You might have a point about coping. She's always seemed to run around pandering to her and I've witnessed her trying to disapline before and it ending in girl ignoring her or having a tantrum and remaining in a bad mood for hours.

I guess thats her choice to ignore but I have to accept it will have a negative impact on my DS on holiday. I think as well now the weather is nicer I'll suggest we meet up at places as her DD seems better when out.

If she's that good a friend then one might suggest that you owe it to her to be honest about the situation. I don't envy you the conversation but explaining that the camping holiday will be no fun with a child who won't help and who disrespects other people's rules and belongings may be the reality check that your friend needs. I feel sorry for the girl because at 5 she's not really responsible for this behaviour - her parents are because she's obviously been led to believe it's ok.

Well my friend text yesterday thanking me for a lovely day and confirming we still had plans to meet on Friday. We are meeting at the beach where we want to camp and checking out the sites we've chosen to make a final decision.

I rang last night and said we were but I felt we should have 2 tents as mine is a squash for everyone and we'd have to look at getting adjoining pitches or a large pitch for 2 tents. She said her DH had mentioned it would be a squash and suggested they purchase another - but she had said we'd be fine. She said she didn't fancy sleeping alone in the tent. I said I agreed with her DH and felt if we all shared and were already cramped then if there were any uncomfortable moments like the day before no-one can escape. I said it wasn't a judgement but an observation.

She started to explain to me that the 5yo is extremely stubborn and even more so since a new teacher started teaching her (few weeks ago). She said he was picking on her. Apparently incidents like one day she didn't want to wear her school cardi and wore a fashion one which friend OK'd and teacher said to her she should be wearing the school one like everyone else (when she went to point out to him how lovely her fashion one was). So the next day she wore school one and went to show teacher proud of herself for wearing the uniform and the teacher just said 'OK' and nothing else really.

I guess theres 2 things you can get from this:

1. the girl is unconfident (as mentioned above) and is desperate to get others to notice her or
2. thats another example of her believing she is different and being allowed to get away with it. (thinking she can wear what she wants and expecting praise for conforming).

Friend agreed she gives her treats because she always seems so sad but we talked about ways of getting her to 'conform' and praising that, treating her when she does whats expected. I said of course she'll be sad with 'normal' life if she thinks material things are the only way to be happy.

We also talked about the edler girl and she said the little one is so much more loving and elder does whats she told so needs less time and thats why they have a better relationship (her and youngest) and I suggested that the elder one must find it hard watching her sister yelling at my friend hows she's stupid and ugly and she wished she died and getting cuddles for it when she gets the iron wrath for normal childhood arguing.

I have offered to have the younger one for the day so she can do something with elder girl but she said 'oh no I can't do that, 5yo would hate it and its not fair on her'.

It was not an easy conversation and so many times I thought my friend was going to hang up or get really angry but I let her do the talking about situations that are occuring and just made my point that sharing would not work - and I was fearful of ruining a great and strong 20 year friendship.

So we'll look at sites Friday and take it from there.

Holidays with friends and kids can get really uncomfortable as no-one can retreat from what ever row has kicked off ... I'd definitely get your own tent ( say the big one's gone mouldy or something ) and keep it short, couple of days tops.

Sounds like the little horror's Mum is scared of setting her off by being firm, which is hard on the older one as the younger seems to have figured out how to manipulate situations to make sure she has constant attention.

Good luck!

Thing is my tent has larger sleeping area than living. I bought it as it had a seperater between the 2 bedrooms which can removed to make it sleep 5. I bought it with the intention of sharing sleeping compartment with DS and using seperator and having other 'bedroom' as extra living space. It really will be cramped with 5. Especially if the weather is bad.

I could have put up with it for 5 nights (the planned length of the holiday) but really not with 1 person dominating the space and others.

I will be going with DS in our tent - my friend really has to decide whether she wants to join us or not.

I think she knows why as when I suggested 2 tents as cramped she immediatly started talking about her DD ^^ behaviour.

I'm hoping by being cruel to be kind she'll address it soon.

"she's stupid and ugly and she wished she died"

From a 5 year old!?

I agree it's sad, I think there's underlying anger issues. I wish I knew what/why so if needed/ wanted I could help. It's not easy seeing a 5yo that angry than it is seeing friend treated that way.

Difference is a few hours/ day visit DS and I can walk away but to be stuck with it and no escape it will affect him and me. I think I will have bitten my tongue off trying not to say somehing by the end of it.

Your DS sounds so lovely

Would it work with you, DS and your friend's older DD having the sleeping accommodation in your big tent, then your friend and the younger madam DD sleeping in a separate one? Where does your friend's DH fit in all this, I'm sure you mentioned she has one, or is this a girls' holiday with kids?

you sound very sensible OP and a nice friend :)

Her Dh has a highly paid and skilled and consequently time consuming job - he doesn't get home to later in the evenings. He has 2 weeks holiday in Augest but as friend and I both teach get the whole summer with DC's.

This is mine and DS holiday whereas its a few days 'fun' for her as she has 2 weeks in Greece a little afterwards.

I have been looking at whats available trip wise where we plan to go - one of which isn't her DD's cup of tea I hope so could mention DS would love to do it and escape there if required one day. . It only 1 hour from here so if don't do it can say as everyone was having fun on site/ beach we decided to do it another day.

I just really don't want a 20 year friendship ruined by 1 childs behaviour that she'll grow out of very soon.

Like the idea of having DS and elder DD with me and I'm sure little one would love having a tent just her and mummy.

I'm glad you think splitting up the DC could work! Having her own tent with Mummy would of course be a treat that she would have to earn

If she's seriously so angry all the time, and it could be school related, has your friend spoken to any kind of parent/school worker or anyone at the school? Also, do you think she acts up because her Dad is fairly absent? These would be issues to explore with your friend, as clearly there's a child in distress here. Just a matter of not letting her distress contaminate anyone else IMHO!

YANBU and I do believe that the kid was this rude. I live in London and have heard much worse, to the point it's unbelievable. Even if the child has anger issues that does not excuse him to speak to people this way, especially adults. Sorry, but I think way too many excuses are made for simple bad behaviour.

Her dad isn't fairly 'absent' - sorry I just re read my post and it seems that way. He takes the girls to school everyday and picks them up once a week (early finish Fri), the other days they go to after school club.He gets home 8pm ish so usually as they are going to bed. He's at home at the weekend.

Apparently all other teachers say how delightful this girl is with loads of friends and really popular - although many have commented how 'different' she is from the eldest. - make of that what you will.

Just new teacher seems a little less charmed by her - he is male though if that makes a difference and doesn't seem to fall for the 'cute' card.

When DS is being a PITA I tell him its his decision to behave that way - as if he's angry he should tell me - and if he carries on he'll have to accept the consequence. Same about the way he treats others. He doesn't always get it right but understands if he says something that hurts anothers feelings he needs to acknowledge that and make amends - I'm not going to say well his dad left/ he's tired so its OK.

Sorry the last paragraph seems irrelevant but someone above said my DS sounds lovely - THANKS - but just wanted to make it clear he's not 'mummies little angel' who needs protecting from the big bad girl but its more the fact I think I'll be expected to stomach the behaviour rather than have it dealt with - ultimatly that will cause resentment and an uneasy holiday.

UPDATE: We went found a site we liked from the 3. I again said we needed 2 tents and pitches as mine not big enough. She asked if it was her DD.

I said not entirely, tent is too small, and we obviously had different tolerance levels for behaviour. I expressed this was fine with me and none of mine what she does but I didn't want to feel resentment towards a 5yo and spoil the holiday anymore than she would want to feel pressured to parent in a different way.

They were good on beach, both DC's seem to have more attitude than I'm use to with DS or would accept. But tbf to my friend when she tries to deal with it they get more agumentitive. When she ignores it they get louder but an hour later do give in. Main thing is that no-one can touch/ go near 5yo towel/ things but she will - and its hard to descibe but basically a real knowing attitude and body language- do it to others to piss them off deliberatly.

She said how she was nervous about sleeping alone (I know she is). She suggested B&B so we could have our own space but way out of my budget.

We have compromised. She will get a larger family tent which will be used for living in. We will have our own seperate rooms for clothes/ our stuff and main area for playing/ using in bad weather and cooking. We will use mine for sleeping and each have seperate sleeping compartments and sleep with our own DC's. We have adjacent pitches. That way I know my bedding/ clothes etc won't get trampled on.

I may take a small padlock for 'my' rooms though.

So I'm happy and looking forward to it now.