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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

In thinking Private Tutors may be considered 'unfair'

93 replies

pingu2209 · 25/05/2011 16:00

I am not wishing to be contentious, but the thread on private or state education certainly got people thinking.

But what about private tutors?

There was a (sad I know) Radio 2 programme an age ago about private tutors not being fair in a grammer school area. That children whose parents could afford private tutors have an unfair advantage over those that didn't. Apparently a high percentage of grammer school children were privately tutored before they took their 11+ exam.

Personally I use a private tutor for my DS1 but that is for his SEN, because the state system is so shockingly crap at meeting SEN needs.

OP posts:
Cortina · 27/05/2011 09:11

LeQueen I agree with your last point but given your seemingly fixed views about ability I wondered what you thought about Matthew Syed's comment:

"Environment overwhelms genetic variation due to the transformation that occurs at a neural level with hard work. Our brains are highly transformable."

I'd be interested to hear what others thought about his Q&A session too. He made some interesting points about those we imagine have innate talent including some sporting personalities, Tiger Woods, the Williams sisters etc.

I am struck that so many seem to think that ability is encoded in our genes, you are either 'bright' or 'slow' and this is set in stone and there isn't very much we can do to change it. Many believe our IQ is largely inherited and follows us between lessons and is as unchangeable as eye or hair colour. Cognitive science is showing that we can change our brains, 'cells that glow together, grow together'.

IMO children are often barcoded young, a very verbal & articulate reception or Y1 child will often be see as 'bright' and once these decisions have been made they are rarely rescinded. See discussion on 'talent is a myth' thread over on education if anyone is interested. Children can improve their performance incrementally, go into any good prep school with a class of less than 20 and watch. Children who are treated as if they are intelligent become so in this sense. I've seen children doing timed tests and assignments twice weekly from Y3, after a while they learn what vocab examiners like and can produce good writing routinely, just as we can navigate a car from London to Cornwall. If you've been in a large class at primary, perhaps with some behavioural problems etc you simply can't compare. Timed tests won't be routine, nor will vocab that examiners might admire and desire to see in your 11 plus paper. Most likely you won't have finished the syllabus by the time you take the 11 plus let alone spent years building up for it. If you get in a car and try to get to Cornwall when you've only driven 3 miles to your local shops previously you might come unstuck, however good a driver you may be. Perhaps not the best analogy but hopefully you get my drift. Many children spurt after the age of 11 too.

So why do we have such a fixed view about ability and intelligence? Guy Claxton has come up with some good ideas. Establishing ability is important as then we get the best return on our investment, educational resources are scarce. Claxton also talks about psychological reasons. It's human nature to want to find people predictable and stable so we ascribe a level of ability to them, even with limited evidence, we so underestimate how unpredictable people are. Lastly Claxton says teachers make assumptions about ability because their lives are busy and complex. Teachers may deal with 150 students a day, all with different issues etc, it's understandable they want to order the chaos. He says that teachers tend to find a lens to reduce all this chaos to 'salient' characteristic's. 'Jimmy's a plodder', 'Sarah's bright but easily upset', 'Anne's helpful but average' etc. IQ tests & quick assessments help teachers in this task and high status subjects like maths and english are seen as more important.

There's so much talk about children that have been hot-housed for the 11 plus struggling when they get to the Grammar school as they don't have the inherent ability. IMO this is sour grapes most of the time. What about the lazy 'clever' student who does nothing when he gets there and falls behind? And where's the evidence for all these strugglers at Grammar? The Grammars I know have sets to cater for all the intake anyway.

Someone earlier mentioned the huge amount of Grammar homework really sorting out the clever from the dim? Really, how does that work exactly?

overcaringparent · 27/05/2011 09:42

My DS1 is seeing a tutor because of his SEN, as the outstanding primary school cannot/will not accept his diagnosis. The tutor says he is actually bright and could take the 11+ but needs his confidence boosting and we're running out of time, but he has a great work ethic. Both DS1 and DS2 have just taken an entrance exam for the private grammar school to join in year 5 and 6 and they are happy to take DS2 but not DS1 as he is not up to an acceptable standard. (they would have done a year ago). What should I do? put 1 in and not the other? How would that affect their relationship / self-esteem / future etc. The logistics of having children in different schools is a nightmare.

LeQueen · 27/05/2011 09:52

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Cortina · 27/05/2011 10:06

Agree LeQueen. Love to get your view on question I asked you a couple of posts above when you've time.

LeQueen · 27/05/2011 11:15

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BelieveInPink · 27/05/2011 11:54

I am considering a tutor for my DD and this thread has been very helpful.

She excels at Literacy but really struggles with her maths (much like myself when I was at school). I didn't like or excel at it, so I didn't try. I didn't try so I didn't do well. DD has the basics but I would like her to be at least at the level she "should" be for her age. So for this reason I have been enquiring about tutors in our area.

I don't want to "force" her into a grammar school if she will struggle and be unhappy there for years. That's not my reasoning for the tutor. I would like to build her confidence in the subject, as well as hopefully making it click for her, if it ever will. I am not the best at teaching my DD maths as it doesn't come naturally to me. Whereas the literacy side, I can explain reasoning etc very well. A tutor would help her gain the confidence and the knowledge that I can't support her with at home.

Just an example, I would know in my head how to work out long division, fractions etc but trying to explain it in words that make sense to a 7 year old, I'm lost. I get frustrated.

Cortina · 27/05/2011 12:23

LeQueen - perhaps not but I wonder about the changes that occur at a neural level that Matthew mentions. Your DD may be truly exceptional but I might be able to catch an above average child in maths ability by neural changes lots of exposure and practise may bring about. I could get much smarter than anyone may realise. There have been lots of developments in cognitive science recently that seem to show this may be possible - 'cells that glow together, grow together'. Chess champions begin to recognise patterns incredibly fast with lots of practice etc they may not have started out being wired that way.

To slightly digress Seuna asked Matthew Syed an interesting question. She said, if I remember correctly, sports ability etc may not all be down to practice etc. Looking at the Williams sisters she said isn't it human nature that we hear only about the successes, of course there will be others who have 'tried' just as hard but failed dismally. Matthew said no, as long as your 'hardware' is adequate for the purpose the rest is just down to simple practice. He found no exceptions, those that put the work in were the most successful. He started out believing otherwise. It's better put on the Q&A thread.

TotemPole · 27/05/2011 12:55

I don't see how any advantage can be considered 'unfair'. That's the way life is.

If parents can't afford tutors then the could always spend some time brushing up on their own knowledge/skills to help the children outside of school. The internet is full of educational sites. There are many 'games' sites that

LeQueen, interesting post, how much is nature or nurture. Your OH is good at maths, so it could be in the genes but it's also likely he's enthusiastic about it and finds it easy to pass it on. So your DD has been getting that extra encouragement from an early age, maybe?

TotemPole · 27/05/2011 12:56

*There are many 'games' sites that can help with maths and english.

apprenticemum · 27/05/2011 13:05

I've just done the 11+ thing. I chose my DD's school because part of the package was that they prepare the girls for the 11+. Yes it was a private school but I am not wealthy, I funded it by cleaning and that's a lot of scrubbing! I reasoned that by pulling out all the stops in primary education, DD would learn the necessary dicipline and skills to take her on.
My DD was an average student however the teacher told me that her particular class was uncomonly bright so I took their word that she would be ready and left it to them whilst backing up with some of the mock papers available on the market. It was a stressful time for me when I discovered that many in her class had started tuturing. I began to question my decision, especially as the two local Grammar schools are in the top ten list and the pass mark is exceptionally high. However, I reasoned that if my DD was to do well in her secondary education, she must be in a school that suits her capabilities and if she cannot get into a grammar school without tutoring, she should not be there. (The teachers also commented that they knew which pupils were being tutored because their school work suffered.) DD passed the eleven + with a mark high enough to get into The Grammar schools however she also won a music scholarship to an excellent school in which I know she will fly, so that is where she is going. The bottom line is that I had the stress, not my daughter, whereas some of the tutored girls underwent terrible stress and still didn't make it. There is a moral in there somewhere!

GiddyPickle · 27/05/2011 13:21

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cordyblue · 27/05/2011 13:23

Maths and English should be fun, enjoyable and engaging. The best teacher and the best tutors encourage this love and do not force feed a child with stuff to regurgitate. You only need to look at a toddler's natural curiousity about the way his yogurt falls on the floor and makes a pretty pattern to know this sense of excitement about learning why things are the way they are is innate in everybody. That's all maths is - a fascination about patterns.
My DH use to tutor when we really needed the extra money before we had children on our own. He's also done it a few times since then with friends' chiildren before their 11+ (not for money, just for fun). Not to force them through the exam, but to encourage that love of numbers, patterns, engage their imagination, make them see what FUN maths is and how anyone can figure out their own ways to do things to make it enjoyable. And above all, how useful it is.
Of course, he chats to his own children about the way that some numbers are truly magical and I chat nonsense too. We both leave books and papers lying around and will chat about politics in front of the children.
We don't need to pay for a tutor because our children are exposed to that naturally. But for parents who may have been scared off Maths or English when they were themselves little, why the hell not give your children that opportunity?
Tutors probably wouldn't need to exist (or at least, as much) if all school teachers were and are inspirational.
Life is unfair. The only way to make it fairer is through education, and people want that stopped in some way??? Baffling.

onagar · 27/05/2011 13:32

I always thought that the 11+ was an evaluation of a child's abilities and not a competition that you can win. From that point of view private tutors for the purposes of helping someone 'beat' the 11+ are unfair to the child.

If the claim is that some children do have the ability, but have not been educated up to their full potential then that suggests a failing on the part of their current school which needs to be addressed for everyone.

When did all this start anyway? I took the 11+ in about 1966 and no one I knew did any kind of preparation for it.

GiddyPickle · 27/05/2011 13:38

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LeQueen · 27/05/2011 13:39

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Cortina · 27/05/2011 13:43

PP with all due respect have you been living under a rock? :) Things have changed since 1966, see my earlier post about the prep etc. Getting into a school like Tiffin for example with no 11 plus preparation, I don't think so sadly.

apprenticemum · 27/05/2011 16:19

Giddypickle
When thinking about our DDs education, I knew that it would be pot luck in the state sector and as with every parent, wanted the best for DD. I only have the one so the I was luckily able to make the choice. Private education does not guarentee preparation for the 11+ in fact most private schools do not offer lessons in verbal & non verbal reasoning within the curriculum. This particular school did and apart from the obvious advantage of smaller class size I doubt I would gone down the private route otherwise.
However I was alarmed at the number of parents who despite assurances that their DD was on track still forked out more money for extra tuition.
Perhaps if the state schools spent as much time on those who show promise as they do on the under achievers, we wouldn't have to resort to these methods.

Andrewofgg · 27/05/2011 17:07

You can't take it into account at university admission time; nobody would admit it had happened.

If you want a radical improvement in fair play at that stage try this:

Admit applicants after A-levels for the following year. Some would change their minds and not go and a few would just not show up, but they are likely to correlate with those who at present go and drop out having wasted everyone's time and a lot of money.

And leave the name and type of school off the application form. No bias, no social engineering, no prejudice.

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