To think that being confrontational is not good parenting...

[GrownUpNow]

After another episode with my mother, I am really sitting down questioning whether there is any place at all for the way she treats my children in parenting at all.

My DD (aged 2) has been off on one all day today. She's changed rooms recently and is finding the lighter room harder to settle in. Thus she is sleeping later and waking earlier. This has a knock on effect on her behaviour, she's grouchy, moody and tantrumming at the drop of a hat. My method for dealing with her tantrums is to pretty much completely ignore the behaviour, unless it becomes violent or destructive, to which I tell her NO! and remove her to a time out area (her room at home, or a step elsewhere).

Yes it's loud, and inconvenient, and even outright annoying sometimes. But it's a natural part of development, I'm dealing with it in the best way I find for my DD, which is to not give her what it is she wants. I find that with her she mirrors behaviour, so if I get cross or shout, she often gets much worse and at almost bedtime I find it more constructive to just be firm, ignore, remove, then explain (when she calms down).

My mum is just awful. Apparently I am completely passive and my DD will learn nothing. If she was hers she'd have her up by the ankles and leather her arse (her own words). Her children would never have dared to act like this as we got put in our rooms with the door closed and locked at any sign of tantrums. She was saying all sorts of passive aggressive things to my DD, at one point called her stupid, and told her to get out as she didn't want to listen to her. Not to come back until she was nice again.

We had words of course, because I don't find my mother's tantrum any more acceptable than my DDs. My mother believes that you need to scare children, or have them be scared of you. She is not averse to screaming and shouting in their faces. She can be completely dismissive of them verbally, even outright offensive, and often flings them about a bit roughly when they are misbehaving. This is how she parented me. Full of love and treats and presents all the time, but the minute you show any bad behaviour it's all getting taken away by big scary Mum/Granny.

AIBU to think that you can raise children without scaring them and that belittling them is just wrong? Surely you don't need to be shrieking and walloping their arses to get the message through that you are cross with them?

I get completely paranoid that my mum is right and I am wrong because she makes me out to be so ineffectual, and yes I do get challenging behaviour from my children, but on comparison they seem no worse than other children their age, and in fact in many ways are very good in some ways.

Is there anywhere you can get support from?

Why do you spend so much time with your mother if she was abusive?

Maybe some time apart would help.

Maybe you could ring your hv and ask for a parenting course(although I think they're like gold dust).

I dip in and out of the How to Talk book.It's quite good.

Also, I have found that ignoring tantrums makes them stop much faster .

They are irrational at 2 ,they don't really even know themselves why they are so mad .

To my mind, there is nothing to confront

I let my DD know that I am sorry she feels bad ,then continue to ignore ~she always comes round very quickly (as did my boys )

I guess I am still just really accepting that she's as bad as she is, I'd always seen her as a victim and surviving. I'm on my own, she's my DD's only grandparent as her father and his family take nothing to do with her, and I have no contact with my father (mums ex) as he is an alcoholic. All my life I blamed my dad, but about Christmas time I had an epiphany, and have slowly been coming to the conclusion that she was just as abusive in ways as my dad. My childhood is just a complete mess, I do NOT want my children growing up like that. I do my absolute best to ensure I don't. I just find discipline a really fuzzy area, we were locked in our rooms, slippered or belted, and we were always really afraid as Mum wouldn't hesitate to smash up crockery or throw things around in a temper. Dad used to hit mum when he got in a temper, or us sometimes, for an imagined or slight crime.

I think speaking to someone is a good idea, a HV is the best place to start. I'm having a bit of a meltdown these past couple of days with it all.

Read 'How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk'
Its fab fab fab and has an answer for most situations and is a laugh to read too. i think it might be just the approach that you're looking for

As for your mother..please ignore her, she's talking total bollox x

Do ring your hv,the fact you're so worried means your dc won't have the same upbringing ie you're aware of what you don't want. However getting upset will cause stress and you'll go round in circles.

I would also try to spend less time with your mother for a while,do ring your hv though thats what they're there for.

You could also try starting a thread with a different title aimed at other mothers with abusive childhoods(see what support they're getting and how they cope).

Best of luck

It's going to be interesting watching the results of this more psychological wave of parenting, and truly I say that without bias either way. I was brought up with a smack as punishment, only remember a few, but remember them I do.

I shout at my children, a lot, I think I need that book.

I hope I live to see the results of the "how to talk so they will listen" crowd, although lets face it, nothing is new under the sun, I'm sure it has been tried before.

If your daughter is playing up because she's in a "lighter" bedroom I would really recommend blackout curtains at her windows. My LO is also 2 and he sleeps much better since we replaced the blackout blind with blackout curtains. He's getting about 2 and half hours more sleep with the curtains up than he was before we had them.

Surely the answer is to buy black-out curtains for the lighter room, thereby preventing the poor sleep and stopping the tantrums? I hated my mother's ideas of how to chastise my kids, it caused huge arguments between us and spoiled our friendship a bit, because anything you say about your mother's views on parenting imply you think she raised you the wrong way and was a bad mum. You just have to be as tactful as possible whilst standing firm that your way is the only way for your kids...

lol takethis, didn't see your post...

My god OP, I'm so sorry you were subjected to hanging up, leathering, imprisonment, insults and generally being terrified as a small child, by your own mother.

No wonder you lack confidence in your parenting, it's a miracle you've any confidence at all after the campaign of terrorism your "mother" chooses to call parenting. She is wrong. And so are all the people who're saying she's got a point. What she's got is an emotional disorder.

Please keep her away from your DC. It will take courage - you can do it, you're grown up now, as your name says :)

Can't say I see much value in OP's mother's style of parenting/grandparenting. Looks like a bit like parenting by intimidation. OP seems to have it right - the main thing is to be in control .....shouting/belittling/rough handling is often a sign that the parent has lost it. There's a very fine line between being strict and being abusive sometimes, and many parents of the "old school" couldn't tell the difference. The main thing is that when children actually do something dangerous/naughty (like hitting someone) that they are removed from the situation and told it is wrong - a timeout at age 2 is quite ok, I don't think smacking achieves anything other than to say the parent/grandparent can be violent and cruel. I remember some cousins (esp boys) actually being more afraid of a timeout than a smack or whack as the smack didn't last very long, whereas 2, 3 or 4 minutes would feel like forever. But they are also good in helping the child simmer down.

I bought blackout blinds yesterday as a matter of fact, it was the first opportunity I had financially, transport wise and with some help to fit and put them up. I am looking forward to seeing if they help, thank you very much for the suggestion.

My mum isn't terrible, she's just terribly misguided. I can say she does her absolute best for us, just that her idea of best isn't quite right. I'm just wondering if having my daughter reach the age that I remember things from is triggering me emotionally, and making me start to respond as an adult who can protect, thus challenging mum and making her worse. She is also herself going through a period of what I would consider mental ill health, she won't listen when I tell her, so perhaps need to take a step back until she's getting better.

I've been cutting down time together already. I won't hesitate to protect my children. My sister has said herself, if my mother ever tries to treat them the way she's seen my mum treat mine, there'd be no contact. I guess I have to take courage in that statement, that it isn't nothing and I wouldn't be overreacting.

By them, I mean my sister's hypothetical children she's having in future.

You're already doing incredibly well, GrownUp, to have developed a more rational style of parenting and to be able to see your mother's antics for what they are (frightening & painful). When you've been brought up by someone who doesn't understand respect - and therefore uses fear instead - the obvious outcome is a nervy adult who tries to intimidate others.

You've managed to escape that :) It's great that your sister validates your perception, it can be too easy to doubt yourself in the face of parental contempt.

I think the blackouts will help DD's sleep. But tantrums are a normal, healthy phase of toddlerdom. It's part of the child's individuation: having recently discovered she is separate from the world around her, she's testing out the boundaries to see what sort of things she can influence (and gets cross when she finds things she can't influence!)

From an educational point of view, tantrums are the first opportunity to help a child learn how to manage her own feelings. There are various ways to do it - depending on the child, as well as the adult - and I favour a similar approach to yours. I send them somewhere safe to rage, and ask them to come back and discuss the problem post-tantrum. I've also found you can often get a kid to laugh at her own OTT-ness, a bit like that commercial where the mother throws a tantrum in the supermarket!

The point is to introduce self-awareness, and a feeling that the child is in charge of her own moods. Something your mother seems not to have learned yet!

BTW, this isn't a generational thing. I'm 56 and had a father who ruled by fear. My friends' parents were not the same, neither are my friends or their children. It's got nothing to do with her age, and everything to do with her own unresolved issues.

I think it's amazing that you manage to stay calm! I think though it's important to have an assertive voice with your children and to be firm when you need to be. It's impossible to know if youa re a push over though as we can't se you in action.

I do think though that the way you parent your children isn't really your mums business, unless you ask her opinion of course. You are free to bring up your kids as you sit fit and your mum is pretty up her own arse to assume that her way is the only way.

It does sound though that you mum is very involvedin there lives if she is there to do all those thigns which you say she is, the flinging about, shouting in their faces, calling your daughter stupid! How does she get the opportunity to do this? Does she live with you? Or do you hand control over when she visits? Do you say anything when she calls her names?

Hi GrownUpNow, it sounds to me as if the scales are falling from your eyes and you are seeing your mother's ways for what they are for the first time. That is really hard. When I had my first baby I received non-coercive, accepting, practical care from the midwives and it felt different from how my mother treats me. That was my first clue.

I love the way you describe how you handle your daughter. The contrast between that and how your mother behaves and speaks is pretty stark. I think you know exactly what you are doing and are learning and refining your techniques all the time by reflecting on how each day goes.

The tricky bit I find is working out how to manage an out of control older relative with respect, but firmly, so they no longer cause havoc with my emotions and our family life. I think it's the old chestnut, boundaries, having been taught not to have any, I am now building some for myself.

garlicbutter The point is to introduce self-awareness, and a feeling that the child is in charge of her own moods

How do you do this? Serious question.

It's a slow process, QQS - takes about 18 years

Getting toddlers to recognise their own tantrums isn't too hard - you may have to bodily move them to their 'safe' spot a few times but, generally, a firm stare and "Tantrum Place Now, Please" will send 'em away.

You then have to drink several large gins while they kick holes in the wallpaper, etc, and reward them when they come back with kindness and a reasonable discussion about what kicked it off. If you can move on to explore more constructive ways to deal with the same problem in future, you've done a piece of fabulous parenting :)

At times when this is impossible, it really can work to make a game of the tantrum! "Whaaa, that's a GREAT grizzle, DC! Can you do it louder? How about bashing your teddy, too? Wow, how does THAT feel?" Makes you look like a bit of a nutter in the supermarket, but it's worth it when apoplexy turns into giggles And you're helping your child to manage their reactions.

There's nothing wrong with ignoring, imo, if you can stomach it for the full stretch. The talking afterwards is the important thing. Good luck!

My mum is pretty involved in my life, though I am learning to become more independent as time goes on. I used to be almost completely incapable on my own, and over the past year I have made massive improvements in my mental health and in running a home and caring for my children. In some ways, despite my mum saying she wanted us to be independent, she keeps us very reliant on her by becoming indispensable with support and money. I have started to rail against this, because I've started to realise that actually I can cope, I can do it by myself and I don't need my mother's approval to do so. It's a lot harder to do of course, but I am achieving loads and it feels great. I love my children dearly, it's hard to say no I want to stop all this good stuff because of the occasional (although becoming more frequent) bad stuff.

In some ways I feel guilty, she was there when I had my kidney infections and was unable to move out of bed, she is always there with toys and clothes for the children, to an embarrassing degree sometimes, she takes the children out to places I couldn't afford or get to, she was there when I managed a pregnancy alone with a toddler and me in a wheelchair, when I was in and out of hospital with health problems, she was even there as my birthing partner for DD and cared for my toddler when I first came back from hospital. She does this for all the family, helps out massively, moans about it of course, behind your back, but she isn't completely awful, she just has no temper control whatsoever. I went onto anti-depressants when I found myself flipping like she did at the kids, and they've been pretty amazing, but she is very anti-drugs, and even anti-mental health problems, despite working in that field.

She used to be the first person I called when I had a problem with anything, now whenever I see her my anxiety shoots up and I have to become completely calm in her presence, talk slowly, move slowly, be reasonable when I want to scream and shout at her. I challenge things I dislike, like calling DD stupid and I go and remove DD from her when she starts to shout these days. She gets cross at me then, in a passive aggressive way, and tells me that I am not allowing her to express her feelings in her own home and to just leave because my DD is "doing her head in" and if I can't discipline her that she's just going to lose it.

I definitely need some sort of talking through this, and perhaps some guidance in how to deal with it. My DD is becoming defiant in my mother's company, refusing to look at her or talk to her sometimes, which shows to me that she is being affected by the behaviour.

garlicbutter sounds a bit like I do anyway. We've had to try to teach dd how to handle her very strong emotions which is an ongoing thing. Was hoping you had the easy answer!

So do you live with your mother? It sounds like you've come along way! Well done! Keep going though and eventually as you get stronger and more independent you can put up a barrier and keep her at the distance that you feel confortable with. As you have mentioned it does sound like she wants to keep you dependent on her so you have to fight that which can't be easy.

I grew up around anger as well and it comes out of me. I try anti anxiety medication (paroxetine) but it just made me sleepy and less able to cope. What did you take? Did it help?

No, we live close by, but not together. I have in the past moved in when not physically able to care for myself and the children.

I take paroxetine myself, it's made a massive difference. The side effects of tiredness, nausea and a fuzzy head do pass after you've taken them for a few weeks. I stopped having obsessive thoughts and my anxiety was at the lowest I have ever experienced, my mood was up and I felt just motivated and happy. It's dropped a bit recently, ever since the trouble with mum started to rev up again, but I have a GPs appointment to talk about raising the dose again.

I took it for a year and for me the side effects never went which was a shame. I also found that it made me not give a shit about things like money so I spent too much!