to ask if you use state or private education

[manicinsomniac]

Sorry, I know it's a little rude and personal but I only ask because I think that only 7-8% of the children in the UK are privately educated yet on mumsnet it seems to be massively higher than that which I find interesting.

So, if I'm not being too unreasonable to ask, do/did/will you use private or state education for your child/ren?

Olifin - sorry you're upset. Fab's right, it shouldn't bother you if you are happy with the school.

But I'll give up the glib tone from before and say this.

Yes, it pisses me off too - Labour voter born and bred here - and what changed my mind? The money pissed away on education, that's what. The billions and billions of pounds spent to see more than a hundred thousand children fail basic numeracy and literacy at the age of eleven. You want to know what it's like to have a private education, in effect, which slavishly follows the primary National Curriulum? It happened to us and it's completely sickening. Mediocre doesn't begin to describe the results. Nothing to do with disruptive children or bad teachers - the NC managed it all on its own. So, yes, I tutored them through a private school exam and in two weeks taught my son more maths than he'd done all year.

Am I angry on your behalf? Yup, I'm extremely angry. Am I going to subject my children further to this? Er, no, I'm not.

I don't sneer at it. I don't even sneer at people like Joan who can't see that there's any difference (the main differences ime are a. aspiration and b. abandonment of primary NC hurrah). It is absolutely sickening, it makes me cross and it's made me change my political colours.

What can I do about it? Nothing at all. Nothing. Except vote with my vote and vote with my feet.

manic - there are plenty out there.
I live in the la la land of commutor belt to the city so their are plenty of independent schools...of all textures and colours. But at both prep and secondary stage I have had quite a few choices that tick the majority f my boxes.

As I say, not everyone's cup of tea...but since it is my cup of tea, am I to be forced to abandon it?

this NC private ed I mention was abroad in a school whose main selling point was its NC devotion (not a home-grown private school)

No, it wasn't me who said that we were the only ones with morals, although I'm not sure that was quite what was said or meant anyway.

Yes, I do disapprove of grammar schools. Wasn't anyone else at school with people who blossomed academically after the age of 11? Or know anyone, like my MIL, who wasn't even put in for it? It was fab for people like my dad, who had opportunities they otherwise wouldn't have - but pity his poor friends who went to the secondary moderns and weren't expected even to get GCEs let alone degrees.

Yes, I have answered on whether I'd ban everything that some people can't afford, and it is because (for the last time) I think that schooling is more important. So, obviously, does anyone who drives an old car or doesn't go on holiday to pay school fees. It's more important. We don't sit our children in range rovers or battered skodas between 8.30 and 3.30 (or later, with the wraparound care) every day, do we?

And as for the idea that the school isn't a child's only opportunity to socialise - sure, but it's obviously always going to be that main one. It's the single most important component of a child's life for 5 days a week, most weeks of the year. I think it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Phew.

QUOTE joanofargos {{{And as for the idea that the school isn't a child's only opportunity to socialise - sure, but it's obviously always going to be that main one. It's the single most important component of a child's life for 5 days a week, most weeks of the year}}}

And that is exactly why I choose to send my DC private

Secondary modern schools shut down opportunities and aspirations for 77% of the nations children.

Hundreds of thousands of us were on the wrong side at 11yrs old-we got where we wanted in the end-but it was a lot harder.

It really makes me laugh when people want grammar schools-what they really want is 'grammar schools if my DC gets a place! (and if they look as if they won't they will tutor and drill until they get one-having then seized it from a DC who is naturally clever- but has parents with no interest in education-they will then bleat on about 'how wonderful the grammar school is for the disadvantaged, clever DC'!)

It works great as a crude separator-the top are easily identified, as are the bottom who couldn't cope but in the middle a line is drawn between DCs of the same ability-according to the number of places. In my case, had I lived at the other side of the river, my marks would have got me a place in the grammar school! I know twin sisters (nothing between them academically)and one passed and one didn't (how those people on the present thread on twins who can't bear to have them in separate classes would cope I dread to think!)

I agree, Fab, that the thing wrong with comprehensive schools is money buys you a place-not to the school- but your house price. Estate agents use it a selling advantage and it can mean that identical houses are thousands apart just because they are in different catchment areas. I think that is where the system falls down, but it does annoy me when all comprehensives are written off as 'bog standard' when you can't begin to compare one in 'leafy' Surrey with one in inner city Manchester. There are comprehensives in some areas that people would be mad to ignore and pay out for education.

It is a bit hypocritical of me to say that I wouldn't pay for education when I have paid for a house in a 'good area'. Lots of people are the same.

Hoof:
*QUOTE joanofargos {{{And as for the idea that the school isn't a child's only opportunity to socialise - sure, but it's obviously always going to be that main one. It's the single most important component of a child's life for 5 days a week, most weeks of the year}}}

And that is exactly why I choose to send my DC private*

Quite. But there are many saying 'well my child goes to cricket and there are some children from state school there, so it's not his only social encounter.... '

I believe it was even suggested that my children lead an exceptionally narrow life if school is their main social contact.

Can't you see Joan?

You had your chance in the sun. Billions of pounds and complete control and a philosphy that loathed and feared elitism. And look where it got us. Thousands and thousands of badly educated children that EVERYONE will pay for. Do I want those children to have had a better education? You bet.

I love elitism. I want an educational and academic elite, whether or not my children are in it. I want brain surgeons, and engineers, and athletes, climate change scientists, and human rights lawyers and businessmen and entreprenerus and computer modellers.

This ludicrous anti-elitist philisophy destroyed equality of opportunity for thousands of children who never got the chance to find out if they were going to be part of that elite because they weren't taught to read and write and add up properly, because their education was disrupted by children who weren't "managed appropriately", because they weren't allowed to win or lose.

Some state schools still offer an excellent education. Want to know why the rest don't? Look at what private schools do. Blame the creaming off if you like, who cares, you will be wrong. The fault lies with the NC, with the philosphy, with poor behaviour management and with a drive towards one size fits all which is damaging and destructive in the extreme.

But of course it's much easier to say it's because of private schools. Too many difficult questions to answer if you delve any further.

Well, I disagree, but there you go!

totally agree with all your list Wordfactory except the single sex bit, Ds and dd school pretty much ticks every box and that's why we chose it.

manic the only thing that my child's primary does not offer from your list is orchestra (and he does that outside school, at council sponsored orchestra), latin and unlimited outdoor space.
There are parks, there are sports facilities locally which parents can easily access.
In effect you are adding on to the school day some of the things that parents would naturally organise for their children outside school, ie: running around in green space, extra sport and extra-curricular activities (languages, dance, art) of THEIR CHOICE.
I can see that it might be convenient to have all these things IN-HOUSE, so that you don't have to ferry your children around, but from what I hear (anecdotally of course) there are large amounts of homework to contend with eating into family time, running around time, time to play.
A poster on another thread, who was very happy with her children's private school, despite some difficulties, seemed overwhelmed by the pressure of getting their homework and afterschool activities all done, fitting it with these expectations of conformity, academic excellence and having a family life. She was worried they wouldn't keep up if they didn't do all the things they were meant to, music practice etc. I felt she had been somehow brainwashed into thinking she was doing the absolutely the right thing for her little ones when in fact she was exhausted by the pressure of it all, and working her socks off to provide the money for their private education.

Around me I see parents similarily exhausted by the expectations of their children's primary private schools, who need the children to do well in 11plus, for their league tables. It is not just a question of no NC, it is a whole different production line to get into the private secondaries. Maybe that is just in London.

Wordfactory why in the world would you WANT your children to have homework? There is enough homework as it is. There is nothing to stop you giving your children homework yourself, if you really want them to do it.

Private , as DS is musical and so at a cathedral prep school.
Fees are huge, but my Ex is paying!
Sadly grown up 2 children went to a state school and got to Uni, but I wish they had had the privalege that little Ds is getting...but different father.

swanriver - yes, you're absolutely right, it does come down to a choice of whether or not you want your child in school for the majority of their waking hours and are prepared to do without family time. I wasn't saying I think these kinds of private schools are the optimum childhood, only that they exist and, while some parents want that lifestyle, they will continue to exist.

As I think I said before, I don't think the private school culture is better, just different. Parents who want it can't get it on the state.

I think one of the main attractions to our school is that parents can work till 6,7,8 o clock at night and know that they're children are being cared for and entertained for no more than they've already chosen to pay anyway. Do I think that's right? No, not really actually. Do I use that care for my own children? Sadly, yes I do. I put my job before my children (I need to work full time, I have no partner) and therefore I need to work in and have my children at a private school.

how can you possibly disagree

sorry, if all you can say is, I disagree, then it's a bit difficult to respect your argument

well, I mean, you don't have one

at all but I did kinda know that anyway

their not they're!

at joan not wanting brain surgeons, engineers, athletes, climate change scientists

oookkkaaaayyyyy

I beg your pardon?
That was never what I said. I wish you'd stop being so rude.

which bit is rude? I think you are reading things which aren't there because you are really struggling with the sense that people are making - and simply can't find any sensible rebuttal

it's what happens when one has nothing to say in response, one starts to take it personally

You had your chance in the sun. Billions of pounds and complete control and a philosphy that loathed and feared elitism. And look where it got us. Thousands and thousands of badly educated children that EVERYONE will pay for. Do I want those children to have had a better education? You bet.
I disagree with this. I disagree that the state, and in particular the last government, was churning out thousands of maleducated children. Not my experience

I love elitism. I want an educational and academic elite, whether or not my children are in it. I want brain surgeons, and engineers, and athletes, climate change scientists, and human rights lawyers and businessmen and entreprenerus and computer modellers.
Of course we all want those things. I want the children who are going to become them to be educated alongside those who aren't

This ludicrous anti-elitist philisophy destroyed equality of opportunity for thousands of children who never got the chance to find out if they were going to be part of that elite because they weren't taught to read and write and add up properly, because their education was disrupted by children who weren't "managed appropriately", because they weren't allowed to win or lose.
the tripartite system destroyed opportunity for thousands, I think you'll find. Who are these children who 'weren't taught to read or write? Show me one. In my experience, competitive sport begins at year 3, and I see children win and lose in sports every year. I see disruptive children now on a very clear 'three strikes' system where they are aware of the consequences of certain behaviour, and repercussions follow swiftly. In my day, a naughty child might get bawled at in a corridor, but there was no structured, consistent discipline. There is now

Some state schools still offer an excellent education. Want to know why the rest don't? Look at what private schools do. Blame the creaming off if you like, who cares, you will be wrong. oh, ok, silly me! Thanks for the objective fact! The fault lies with the NC, with the philosphy, with poor behaviour management and with a drive towards one size fits all which is damaging and destructive in the extreme.

But of course it's much easier to say it's because of private schools. Too many difficult questions to answer if you delve any further.

swan - my view on homework is that anything improves with practise. So small tasks which focus on what has been covered in class help hugely.

I don't mind overseeing it and my children have never minded doing it.

I take all the hand wringing about stress and lack of family time with a pinch of salt. Middle class whinging about such things is a luxury.

gooseberry
Now in Germany there are engineers, athletes, writers, doctors etc.
They have almost no private schools, or private schools are generally considered quite odd and for rich, problem children. Anyway this is what my Dh reliably informs me.

However, they still have the equivalent of grammar and secondary modern or even three tier, I can't quite remember the types but the bottom level are vocational schools. They are all state schools.

Dh was exactly the sort of not very academic child that ended up at the secondary modern, whilst his brother went to the Gymnasium(academic secondary). As it was he hated his school, and was only saved because his parents sent him to an International School as they had moved to a different country, where he did well, and went on to London University...

I suspect if there had been private schools in Germany with any repute, his parents would have sent him there. But there weren't. As it is, he thinks it is wonderful that you can have access in UK to a comprehensive school where all abilities can develop at their own pace. You can have streaming, but there is no automatic relegation at an early age.

"Show me one".

how about 115,000 who left primary school aged 11 two/three years ago having failed basic literacy and numeracy?

how about looking beyond your own experience?

how is that the fault of private schools?

it would be nice if they were all educated alongside but unfortunately too many children are failing and one of the problems is that there are denialists like yourself

and if as you say, they are not failing, then why on earth do you claim there's an inequality of opportunity?

In Germany I suspect they haven't dumbed down state education in quite the way we have.

Anyone with your DHs experience thinks that a comprehensive is wonderful, in my experience swanriver. Once you have had your prospects messed up by being on the wrong side of a line on one particular day when you are only 11yrs old you love the idea that DCs can develop at their own pace.
What we need is a system that values the practical and technical and streams according to ability and wishes at 14yrs and then we would get all the engineers and skills that the country needs, instead of disillusioned DCs who avoid failing by opting out and being disruptive.