WWYD: Exploitation - (dupl post from Childminders, hope it's ok)

[MisSalLaneous]

Duplicate posting from Childminders' topic as this really bugs me and I'd love general opinion on this: Is this legal? (I suspect so, sadly.) Is it even reasonable of me to want to remove childcare from two children under 5 when their mother sounds so coldhearted? Good for the nanny/au pair/xxx, but what about the children? Same thing would probably happen with next person. Urgh, what would you do?

Here is the full story from my other thread:
"A general question really, as the info I have is hearsay only. Here goes though:
My cleaner told me today that she found out someone (who she doesn't know, only talked to her on the train) was promised a live in nanny job in London, so she came here from her home country. It's in Europe, and no visa restrictions.

Anyway, it now seems this girl is being paid £250 per month, has to look after 2 children under 5, 7 days a week, 24 hours. The mother doesn't work, but the girl has to do everything for the children, as well as cooking, cleaning for the family, etc. Oh, and it gets better: apparently she needs to share not only a room with the children, but a bed with the 4-year old. She is not allowed time off without the children, ever, even if she is ill. Apparently the mother got really annoyed when she asked to go for a walk once, grudgingly agreed, and after 30 minutes called her again to say one of the children needs a bath so she had to come home immediately.

This might, of course, not be true, but my cleaner, whom we have known for years and is an amazing woman and normally a good judge of character, was really upset about it. She said that she didn't know what to do, but that she would try to help this girl. All I could think of is to search au pair agencies, and Gumtree, and then apply from there? Her English isn't good enough to work as a nanny yet, and she doesn't have the experience either (in this job less than 6 months). I thought as she needs accommodation, and would be willing to work for little money, au pairing might be a good start? Any ideas? Thanks."

YANBU - I would suggest she needs to contact www.kalayaan.org.uk/ for advice.

It all sounds less than legal. I think she shoudl speak to the authorities otherwise the family will just get a new nanny to do the saem to her.

Thanks for that link, wmmc, I'll have a thorough look tonight. First glimpse (but I've only read first page) mentions specific migrant visas - the problem here is that she ("nanny") didn't actually need a visa to work here. For the moment, let's say she is French (trying to make it slightly less searchable, but probably doesn't matter). Anyway, so this French girl gets told by someone in France that there is a good live in nanny position at a French family in London. So the communicate, and nanny ups and leaves to London. She has no money, no family to go back to, and stuck in this situation.

Because no visas were involved, I worry that no rules have been broken. And because there is no minimum wage for live-in nannies, I suspect they might not actually be breaking the law. It should though, it's modern day slavery imo.

Wonder if there is any department I could call on Monday. Her English is apparently not good, and living with these people and not being able to be on her own, I suspect calling could be difficult anyway.

And yes, vajazzhands, that's what worries me too. Even if I can help her (and I will try to find out what I can), it's just someone else's daughter next time.

It's possibly legal. Does she have a contract? Are the terms as they were described in the communication?

Alternatively it could be an au pair, quite lazy, wanting sympathy...could be anything really. I do think though that even though she is young, she is still an adult, and if she is capable of getting herself abroad for a job, she is capable of getting herself home or finding a new one. Sorry if I sound unsympathetic, but I have heard too many tales of lazy au pairs. She doesn't have the qualifications to be a nanny so I can't see how she can be anything other than an au pair. If it genuinely is a case of modern day slavery, then since the girl is European and getting some pay, she should simply buy a ticket home?

Actually even if she doesn't need a visa she should get minimum wage and minimum days off etc. You don't have the right to enslave staff wherever they come from.

But yes she could be a lazy git. Like all professions they have their fair share of loafers.

There's no distinction between nanny and au pair unless you're an A2 national. Nothing says nannies have to be qualified, unless OFSTED registered. Is she Ronanian or Bulgarian OP?

Live ins are exempt from min wage legislation and donestic employees aren't covered by certain parts of the working time directive.

Oh yes, of course - I don't now her at all, but going on what cleaner said, it could possibly be true. I really don't know, she (cleaner) seemed shocked about this (they come from same country, but don't know each other, if that makes sense).

I very much doubt that there is a contract. It was arranged through a friend of a friend kind of set-up. So whilst I can generally see you point, nijinsky, £250 per month is not exactly enough for her to start a new life with again back home. And I know it's a bit irrelevant to this specific issue, but her parents have died, and family she lived with not exactly wealthy, so can't ask them for money.

Oh, I know this sounds like one big sop story - even typing the paragraph above I could hear myself thinking "yeah right" etc etc. If it wasn't cleaner (urgh, hate typing that all the time, but obv won't use her name here) who told me, I would have ignored. This girl has texted her again after a week, just to say thank you for listening, so maybe not complete rubbish. And she doesn't have money or loads of contacts, so unlikely place to tell a sob story for the sake of it.

Hope it doesn't matter that I'm typing this. She's Lithuanian, frak

Doesnt come under minimum wage or working time directives.

Depending on country of origin, £250 may be a fantastic wage. also, if £250 is personal spending money, all meals, room, board, a car, ophone calls home, holidays thrown in - well - I dont think I get that luxury !!!!

...and hopefully you have friends who can provide her with a job? Its just a way for her to find another job, OP. I'd hazard a guess and say her current job isn't that bad, but she fancies better pay and conditions (don't we all). Why would she need enough money to start a new life back home before returning to her own country? If it was that bad, she would surely simply return there. I don't think theres anywhere in Europe you couldn't get to for £250 one way.

And if she met your cleaner on a train, then she obviousy does get out and about?

Its just that I can equally imagine a family telling a story about "we took on a young Eastern European girl as an au pair, only to find she spent all her time in her room and visiting friends from Poland. We had to constantly remind her to do her job. We were so upset when we found out that she'd been bad mouthing us to everyone, when we'd done our best to ensure she settled in and was happy".

I'd just take it with a pinch of salt, thats all I'm saying...

Yes, but having to survive in London on £250 per month not exactly luxurious, surely. She does get a room - which she has to share with the two children she's looking after. She also shares her bed with one of them.

No car, she bought her own phone, no holidays, and she's on duty 24 hours a day. Of course your life is better (if this is true, obviously) Oh, and apparently she can't request food, e.g. yoghurt etc - but she can eat what they eat, so at least not going hungry.

My guess would have been Polish or Lithuanian.

Depending on country of origin, £250 may be a fantastic wage. also, if £250 is personal spending money, all meals, room, board, a car, ophone calls home, holidays thrown in - well - I dont think I get that luxury !!!!

The luxury of sharing a bed with a 4 year old or being a personal slave who does all the work?^

Well, nijinsky, I hope you're right. I think if I was going to try and get someone to find me a job, I'd sulk at the church / doctor's / school etc, not to someone working as a cleaner. But hey, I do actually seriously hope you're right.

Bit uncalled for re your guess above though - I've never had anyone work so hard as cleaner, who is also Lithuanian. Extremely proud, highly qualified, too old, no economy. She never complains, I found out about her (professional) qualifications as we were chatting over the years.

AIBU to point out that university students from Britain commonly go abroad to work as volunteers and either have to pay their own way or get a very minimal wage and keep ie basic accommodation and no food? And work quite long hours. I've done poorly paid jobs abroad when a student, in order to experience working in another country. When you are young and have little in the way of work experience or qualifications yet, its just the type of job you do sometimes, isn't it?

That is true, but somehow a bit more depressing when there's nothing better to look forward to. I think it's the childcare thing (never mind bed sharing etc etc) that really bugs me the most. Essentially she is raising two children for less than £10 per day (including night).

Usual disclaimer: If this is even true etc etc.

Just wanted to come back and say thanks for everyone's posts. I appreciate the advice, links, and doubts, actually. I think what I'll do is see what information I can gather, then I'll point her to agencies if she wants to apply for other jobs. I've already told cleaner to tell her to do a search on Gumtree. I'm not in a position to offer her a job anyway, and none of my friends would either - I really just wanted to know what people would do in this situation. So thanks. :-)

I worked as an au pair a long time ago and was more or less a sole charge nanny. Although I knew the woman worked, I assumed that once she got in I would be fairly free and that she would do bathtime, story, bed etc. No! I did everything 7 till 7 for that child plus all laundry for the family (although to be fair she did all the cleaning). And I worked 6 days a week plus babysitting for 2-5 evenings a week. I earned £100 a month! I did leave and sorted myself out other work after some months. I have met quite a few women who have ended up in similar situations - it's fairly common as an au pair to be exploited!

Oh wow, really Tinuviel? I always assumed au pairs were mainly helping with children (e.g. school run, helping with food prep, supervising, babysitting etc), but not sole charge for long periods, plus then generally helping around the house. I also thought 25-ish hour weeks, with time to go to language classes or meet friends on weekends if they so wished. A friend of mine was an au pair years ago, and even though there were 3 children, the family was lovely and she kept in touch with them.

Knowing the cost of other childcare (having used nannies / nurseries), I'm a bit shocked that people are expected to do such long hours for next to no remuneration. If it was just working as part of the family, with own room, phone etc, then fair enough to earn spending money. For a full time proper job however, it's unfortunate.

She is entitled to a contract and 5.6 weeks paid holiday. An au pair (although technically she isn't one in the strictest legal sense) is still an employee, albeit one who can legally be employed for a pittance and work as many hours as they and the family agree to, but the key is the agreement.

I think a lot of confusion arises over the use of the term au pair. It used to describe a type of person who could only do a job under quite specific conditions. Now it's used as a catch all phrase for a job (25/30 hours childcare and light housework with oportunities to study English) OR to mean a young foreign person who lives with a family and isn't paid well (but could still be doing a FT nanny job). So prospective au pair thinks it'll be option a when what the family mean is option b.

I'll mention that, thanks. Whether she'll take it up with them is another thing, but I would think that the mention of legal requirements might make them think of treating her slightly better.

It's unfortunate to have this position where legally no protection is given to someone live-in if they didn't require a visa. Fair enough I suppose about no minimum wage - if you got room, food, time off, a good life really, then yes, just spending money prob fine as it would give someone experience they could use later or could be a way for them to experience different cultures. What would be useful though would be something ensuring (but then again, I guess difficult to monitor and enforce) minimum living conditions like own bed (room better, but thinking bare minimum here), max 40 hrs work etc if earning below a certain amount. I realise it's probably not practical, but it feels so unreal when we can have decent working conditions whilst someone like this -and like someone mentioned before, it seems not as rare as I hoped! - is treated like this. So unfair.

How can someone say it is normal for young people/students to work like this??
Sharing a bed??
Lazy arse mother who won't even bath her own child.
Disgusting behaviour

SS would have a problem with the whole 'stranger sharing a bed with child' thing, also.