to ask for your opinion on the AV referendum?

[redexpat]

I've read all the arguments for and against AV and first past the post, and listened specially to Radio 4, but I simply can't decide which way to vote! They all seem equally valid. Thoughts?

choosing even

The party which came first in the first round will be counted again in the second round too, because some people will have put it as second choice.

I'd say it's "Coke please, if there's not quite enough let's see whether enough people wanted coke as second choice".

CQ and balia - you are right its not PR, its AV. Different letter, see?

If you vote for a party that in the end, only gets 10% of the votes;
under FPTP you have wasted your vote and might as well have stayed at home. Therefore you would have to vote for a different party, even though its not who you really want.

Under AV, you can vote for who you really want. If they are eliminated because they didnt get many votes, only then does your vote count towards your second choice.

Sarah OK, so you don't like my analogy. But GiddyPickle puts the basic point I was trying to make well on another thread when s/he describes AV as a feel-good tweak that gives the illusion of choice yet changes nothing about the final outcome at all .

It's a choice between two options that, from everything I've read including arguments by both parties, won't change a damn thing in terms of the final outcome. Hence it's not a real choice, and is depriving us of the opportunity to vote for meaningful electoral change. The point of the analogy is simply that the whole referendum is a sham aiming to give the impression of reform but offering little except a slightly different flavour of the same rubbish.

Tactical voting was a big issue last election, one that will not exist at all if we have AV, if you don't want to give a second or third preference you don't have to....

I'm voting yes - always supported electoral reform (right from doing A level and degree Politics). I had to tactically vote in the last election (and boy oh boy did it stick in my throat having to vote Conservative to get Labour out... majority of 200 or so so it really did count) and I hope to never be in that position again. I've also spoiled ballot papers before - just to try to make my disapproval known

While AV isn't the exact system I want (personally I'd prefer a regional list one), it's better than the shit one that is FPTP - mind you I'm from a background of growing up in a Labour heartland where you could count the votes with a shovel and supporting another party - you can understand people thinking "what the fuck is the point of voting".

Also am really disgusted with some of the shit and lies being chucked by the No campaign - a lot of which boils down to "ooooh ooooh it's evil and it's not what we do here" with a sideorder of "oooh coalitions evil evil evil" (considering we're currently sitting IN a coalition.... ho hum to that).

Im voting yes, because its not right that MPs get elected when most people voted against them. AV will fix this and make sure the person who gets elected MP is the one MOST people prefer.

For the people who have raised the very real fear that BNP and UKIP voters' votes will spill over into the results of the mainstream parties:

This is a good point, and it could happen. This is why the mainstream parties have got to stop being so damned lazy about stamping on disgusting and divisive ideas and lies propagated by "parties" beyond the pale.

Labour and Conservative have been disgracefully crap about this, because they're not at all afraid. They're not really fighting for our votes, nor for the society they believe in. If we change the current system, they will have to do better, or they will lose ground, in some cases seriously (as Blatherskite fears).

I know it sounds arrogant, but in a way, I'm not even afraid of a BNP candidate's getting in Parliament. What the hell is s/he going to do there? S/he will be marginalised, and will give the others enough of a shock to make them get off their arses and be cleverer and more humane about creating a society in which no-one wants to vote for a hate-mongering racist. Okay, the dignity of Parliament will be dented by offering "legitimacy" to such political views. However, again: those who care about the honour of Parliament can make that right.

Sinn Fein, the political arm of the IRA, has had candidates elected to Parliament (although I'm not sure they take up their seats), and there is power-sharing in Northern Ireland. Although some people would never agree to even look at Sinn Fein, thanks to past history, UK/Irish politics have survived the introduction of Sinn Fein and powersharing.

That's not to say I believe the IRA/Sinn Fein and BNP have the same potential future. The IRA used much bloodier and more bullying means than I am aware the BNP have. However, their politics are of decolonialisation/fair representation/anti-discrimination, which can be sought politically, rather than bloodily, and thank God they are doing that now. Meanwhile, the BNP, even if stupid and not as bloody, have a much less defensible politics of discrimination and disintegration - which is why I don't believe they have a political future, except when other political parties aren't doing their job to make this a decent society.

I shall be voting for it, as will my son who has read up on it god knows how many times, and he just turned 18 so his first vote.

Seems to me that most people (except MNs of course) are too stupid to have one vote - now we want to give them five......aaaaargh

"Majority rule should mean just that ? you need a majority, 50% of the vote, to win an election and that is what the ­Alternative Vote delivers.

It would not change anything in constituencies where people already give their MP more than 50% of votes.

But in the two-thirds of ­constituencies that do not fit this pattern, it is right that the second and third preferences are taken into account."
David Milliband

Yes to AV. First past the post descriminated against small political parties because you have to pay £5000 deposit for ever seat fought, and small parties like the Scottish Greens find it hard to win with FPP despite having alot of voters spread over the country.
Yes PR will be better but it isn't on the menu. If we get AV we are more likely to get PR later than if we stick with FPP as the Tories and Labour will use a no to AV vote as a reason to never try and change the system again.

£500, got carried away with my 0s.

Yes because a no vote will mean the end of PR for at least 50 years and PR really is democratic. AV is not great but it is marginally better than FPTP and certainly no worse.

Carrying on the Coke / Sprite analogy.

Assuming your choices were Coca Cola, Pepsi and Sprite and the vote was split 29/31/40. Under the first past the post system, the sprite voters would win but the cola drinkers vote would be split between Coca Cola and Pepsi leaving only 40% of the voters getting their preferred type of drink. However, under AV, assuming Coca Cola voters put Pepsi as their second choice, 60% of the voters get a drink that at least appeals to them.

I think you should be afraid though pluPassionatelyHatingAntiAV The town where I grew up got complacent about voting, not enough people turned up to have their say and an all-but-BNP Mayor was elected.

It's a lot closer than people think in some areas

Either a yes or a no vote will mean we don't get PR. The question we have got is 'do we want AV'? A system that is just as unfair as FPTP but much better for the Lib Dems. (No better for smaller parties who will still have no chance - only difference is there will be some limited measure of how 'popular' they are, they still won't get any seats.)

Whatever way we vote in this referendum, it's not clear that we'll get another. We've only had ONE referendum in this country in the last 50 years - politicians will say 'there's no public appetite for another referendum' because either people were against voting reform or people voted for AV and are happy with that. None of the three countries that introduced AV have moved on to PR.

Edam, I agree but I am absolutely sure that if no triumphs today, the anti-PR campaign will be given the strongest argument against change they could hope for. It would be a gift, a gift I don't want to give them. AV is no panecea but it's no worse than FPTP and a yes vote will mean that the PR campasign will be able to argue that British voters are open to change.

I thought I had it sussed and then I saw this morning that Nick Griffin is urging people to vote No to AV as "AV is designed to stop the BNP"

I still feel like AV gives fringe voters more say. If you vote for Labour or Conservatives, your vote is only going to get counted once with either system, it's the fringe voters who are going to have their votes recounted 2 or 3 times and sway the final results...

..isn't it?

Blatherskite, I do know it's close. It gets closer, the longer voters and other parties remain this lazy.

Sorry, I really don't mean to sound blasee about this.

I'm so I'm actually considering not voting for the first time ever.

I have no clue what's best so might as well leave the decision to those who understand it

Fringe parties include the Greens don't forget, another party who actually have quite a bit of support but not enough to be recognised much under the current system. It's not just the BNP who are fringe parties.

Vote yes

Edam I can see your point but I agree with jenny60 that a No vote will be taken as support for FPTP and that will be the end of that.

Someone else just reminded me about the Greens too.

Still not sure

Blatherskite: think about it like this. The fact that votes for fringe candidates get recounted just means those voters are included in the final decision once the fringe party has been eliminated. They have no more say than anyone else. It ends up being exactly as if the fringe party had not stood in the first place.

There is a difference between the BNP and the Greens which is that the BNP will never come near the level of support required to get an MP, while the Greens have already proved they can.

More people will vote both Green and BNP under AV, as their votes won't be wasted. But while Green stand a chance of getting seats this way, the BNP never will.

Thanks Paul, that's interesting. My worry is that almost-as-racist parties like the EDL and UKIP might stand to gain more seats as 2nd and 3rd choices are taken into account.