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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask for your opinion on the AV referendum?

169 replies

redexpat · 03/05/2011 21:48

I've read all the arguments for and against AV and first past the post, and listened specially to Radio 4, but I simply can't decide which way to vote! Confused They all seem equally valid. Thoughts?

OP posts:
TastesLikePanda · 03/05/2011 22:22

I'll be voting 'Yes'. I've always believed in PR.

The difficult bit for me is explaining it all to DH without sounding biased one way or the other...

SardineQueen · 03/05/2011 22:26

Gwendoline

At the moment an MP can get in with say 1/3 of the vote, meaning 2/3 of the people voted against them.

With AV they look at 2nd and 3rd choices too. So the person who gets in should have had most of the people in the area register them as achoice.

Obviously you don't have to put a choice for anyone you actively don't want.

Say 40% of people like A, but not B or C
And 35% of people like B best and C second best, they don't like A
And 25% of people like C best and B second best, they don't like A

At the moment A will get in even though 60% of people don't want them
With AV, B would get in with 60% of people liking them

Does that make any sense? I think that's how it works anyway.

SardineQueen · 03/05/2011 22:27

A1980 you would propose a strict 2 party system?

So I guess a choice between Labour, or the Conservatives, and that's it?

Why?

nenevomito · 03/05/2011 22:28

I think this explains it well.

Bollydarling · 03/05/2011 22:30

We need change so will be voting yes on Thursday. Basically you rank candidates based on preference. If no one wins more than 50% of the vote then the 2nd preference votes on the ballot paper for the last placed candidate are distributed amongst the other candidates. If still no one has won more than 50% then the process continues. Simples!!!!

Hopefully AV is a step on the way to a better system. Also would be great to upset all those right wing Tories who are so happy to see the NHS & public education system be systematically dismantled. Really can't see what is going to be left for my bump at the end of this government's reign of destruction.

GwendolineMaryLacey · 03/05/2011 22:31

Thanks SQ, your explanation and the Dan Snow (who is rather nice!) videos have made it a bit clearer.

Blimey, I'm going to have to give this some thought Confused but not as Confused as I was!

SardineQueen · 03/05/2011 22:32

Dan Snow is very persuasive isn't he Wink

(Vote yes you know you want to Grin)

manticlimactic · 03/05/2011 22:36

Dan Snow made it sound rather simplistic.

Here's the other side.

MistyB · 03/05/2011 22:36

It's a Yes from me too. Successful candidates under an AV system require the approval (whether first of subsequent preferences) of at least 50% of the voters rather than under the First past the post system where MP's are routinely elected with an approval of around one third of the voters.

Therefore candidates need to appeal to at least half the voters in their constituencies rather than to win over enough voters to get more votes than the other candidates. Hopefully this will ensure those that end up in government, will reflect the views of the majority of voters.

A1980 · 03/05/2011 22:36

Sardine I meant that most Labour voters wouldn't list Tory as second choice or even last choice, and vice versa with every other party combination. They want the party that they want and that's it. Of the Labour voters that I know, none of them would vote Tory in any shape or form. That's why getting one vote from a long list of candidates makes the most sense.

Ergo either you want something (a particular party in power) or you don't...... You just didnt' understnad my post. I did not mean there should be only two parties.... Confused

manticlimactic · 03/05/2011 22:37

Ah nuts

Seabright · 03/05/2011 22:37

Another "vote yes" here, it's not as fair as full PR but much better than what we have.

Have recently heard an interview with the main Australian Returning Officer (the guy who runs their elections) and he said the additional costs the No campaign are claiming are rubbish, plus they seem to have fair election and fair results.

GwendolineMaryLacey · 03/05/2011 22:37

I need simplistic, simplistic is good. Any more complicated than that and I will spontaneously combust.

manticlimactic · 03/05/2011 22:40

Me too Gwen. I like simplistic. Maybe I worded it wrong. I think I meant he wasn't telling you the whole story.

manticlimactic · 03/05/2011 22:43

Here you go gwen

This is quite simple and I understood it Grin

SardineQueen · 03/05/2011 22:45

Couldn't disagree more A1980.

Many people have more than one party that they would be reasonably happy to see in power.

Many people feel that they are unable to vote for their actual preferred candidate because the only sensible thing to do it vote tactically. People are already voting for their second, third or fourth choices, in droves.

With AV people can vote with their hearts, they can vote how they actually want, and that is a good thing.

bronze · 03/05/2011 22:45

It's a yes from me (and by that token DH cos he admits he hasn't got a clue)
I'm afraid if we vote no they'll say we don't want reform of any kind. AV isn't what I would choose but at least it's a step int he right direction and stops us being stuck forever without change.

manticlimactic · 03/05/2011 22:45

Bloody hell. Can't we have that convert link box ticked as a default!

SardineQueen · 03/05/2011 22:47

Seabright yes I have read as well that the No campaign claims about how much it will all cost are simply lies.

Hardhatonamission · 03/05/2011 22:48

manticlimactic the voice over on that link is dire!

manticlimactic · 03/05/2011 22:50

I agree! But it's the only video I've actually understood! Grin

plusRoyalisteQuUneEmigree · 03/05/2011 22:51

The arguments I have seen used against AV are incredibly disingenuous and insulting.

The silliest and most dishonest argument has got to be "someone can be elected on x little percentage of the vote. How is that fair". Actually, that's more likely to happen with First Past the Post: currently, if you vote in a constituency which has got one Labour candidate, and a lot of rightwing candidates, and the rightwing candidates split the right-wing vote, the Labour candidate could get in with a small percentage because the left-wingers could have all voted to keep out the right-wingers. In France before Sarkozy, a split leftwing vote kicked Socialist candidate Lionel Jospin out of the election, meaning a final round between Chirac (conservative) and LePen (racist fascist). Shocked and humbled left-wingers then had to vote for Chirac, but did so with clothespins on their nose. This is the sort of surprise shock you can get from an uncompromising choose-one-or-the-other voting system. Any kind of voting system which allows you to rank candidates means you can send exactly the message you want, not let someone crazy in by accident.

'Nick Clegg is unpopular, so he wants you to vote AV to save his party, which has been a turncoat on a lot of its manifesto pledges during its time in coalition with the Conservatives'? Well, if Nick Clegg and the LibDems are so unpopular, AV will actually ensure you can make sure your vote never goes to a LibDem (because you say if Green don't get it, then Labour, then Monster Raving Loony Party, etc. Easy to exclude anyone you dislike).

The Times had an editorial about how 'anyone who hears about AV initially likes it, but then the more you explain it to them, the more confused they become and the more they dislike it.' How vague is that? Who did the explaining? Who are these compliant "people" whose little heads were "confused" by something the columnist failed to make plain? FFS, if you can't explain what's wrong with the system, just that "people don't like it", what sort of journalists are you? Crap ones. Oh, and a very important point these Times writers didn't make was that the Times is a Murdoch paper. Murdoch as a business entity is well-known for political donations, political pressure, the Sun's boasting that "It's the Sun Wot Won it" and so on. Is Murdoch going to be keen on any kind of new politics which means he has to donate more, to more political parties, instead of exerting influence fairly easily in the current cosy system of 2+ parties? Hmm

The behaviour of those damning AV has been pretty disgusting, as well. The Conservatives agreed to a referendum, as one of the costs of coalition. So they agreed to whatever they had to, to get the LibDems on board, or they would have been powerless, and now they are turning on the LibDems with personal attacks and dishonest campaigning. Pretty dishonourable. Why would they behave like that? Openly, too!

As for the supposed cost of converting to AV, that's scaremongering, and again, pretty vague.

I am just really insulted that this anti-AV campaign has been waged so nastily, dishonestly and with a more or less open message: fuck off and shut up and leave us to it. I don't like being spoken to like that, still less by people who ought to be dependent on my vote.

I am definitely voting for AV. It may not be perfect, but there is no way I will let anyone think I agree with the anti campaign.

CrystalQueen · 03/05/2011 22:51

AV isn't PR though. A party that gets 10% of votes won't end up with 10% of the seats. If you live in a safe seat, your vote won't matter any more under AV than FPTP if more than 50% of voters vote for one candidate.

balia · 03/05/2011 22:51

This is not PR.

It is costly, confusing and will result in the LibDems getting more MP's. On recent form, they will then side with whichever party has the most votes, and forget any of the election promises they made. So pointless waste of time.

If we say yes to this we will never have PR.

squirrel007 · 03/05/2011 22:54

I am voting yes for the reasons RoseC talks about - if the country votes no now then I don't think there'll be another chance to change to proportional representation in the immediate future. AV isn't the best option but it's the only alternative that they're allowing us to vote for on the ballot! It's a step in the right direction, and I think our system could do with a change to shake things up a bit :)

As for the argument about it being a bad scheme and Australia wanting to get rid - I think the conservatives are on dodgy ground by only allowing a referendum between FTPT and AV, then campaigning against it on the basis that it's not a good scheme!