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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

WWTD? Giving evidence in court with a newborn

47 replies

CinnabarRed · 19/04/2011 14:11

I am almost certainly going to have to give evidence in a crown court case at some point in the next few months.

It's unusual and important in that the CPS view my case as a test case for future prosecutions (not against this particular accused person, but because there's a hole in the law where certain behaviours that the CPS, and I, think are unacceptable don't fall within any existing laws. The only law under which the accused can be tried was written in 1840, and hasn't been used in years, and certainly not in these circumstances)

I don't feel able to give you any more details of the case - my apologies, but anyhow I don't think it's relevant to this AIBU post.

I'm pregnant and it's unlikely that the case will be tried before the baby is born. I'm planning to breastfeed, as I did with my two existing DCs.

The problem is that I will not be allowed to bring a breastfeeding baby into court. I can understand this, given the serious nature of the case and the obvious distraction that a young baby could create. But on the other hand, how can I leave a breastfed baby at home for an uncertain amount of time?

I am the chief prosecution witness, and it's in the balance whether the case will proceed if I don't give evidence (there is some CCTV footage that will also be presented in evidence, some photographs confiscated from the accused's mobile phone and a written witness statement from a security guard).

I called the CPS liaison to explain about my pregnancy. They were very nice, but would like to have a clearer idea from me about whether I am still willing to give evidence. I suspect that if I say no then they will drop the case. So far I have said yes, and that I'll find a workaround (perhaps having a friend with me who could take the baby while I'm actually giving evidence?). But I'm now wondering whether it would be better to say no and just remove this whole stressful thing from my life.

But I really don't want the accused to get away with something really quite upsetting and disturbing. Not least because if the prosecution succeeds then the precedent set might help other people in the future.

WWYD?

OP posts:

Original poster

CinnabarRed · 01/06/2011 13:14

Quick update - the case is likely to fall into the second half of June, but I'm not going to be called. There's enough evidence from other sources. So problem solved.

OP posts:

Tortoiseonthehalfshell · 01/06/2011 13:22

Oh, fantastic. i'm really curious what the case is about, now, will you be able to tell us after the trial is over?

Original poster

CinnabarRed · 01/06/2011 17:25

Of course! It's won't be half as interesting as you'll be imagining.

OP posts:

Original poster

CinnabarRed · 22/06/2011 10:37

A quick update.

The case has come to court, and the defendant changed his plea to guilty at the last moment.

The charge was causing outrage to public decency, which is covered by an act from 1840. What basically happened was that the defendant was taking photos of my bottom and knickers on his camera phone while I was Christmas shopping at the local shopping centre with DS2. (Just so you understand, my knickers were only showing when I bent over to comfort DS2, who was upset and tired.) To make matters worse, he then followed DS2 and me into the lift, back to my car - which was parked on a completely different level to his own - and tried to start a conversation about what was bothering DS2, all the while taking more photos every time I looked away to strap DS2 into his car seat. The first I knew of the photos was when two security guards did a citizens' arrest on him.

Because there is nothing intrinsically illegal about taking photographs in a public place, the only offence he could be charged under was one of outraging public decency. In other words, that ordinary members of the public, if witnessing his actions, would find them offensive and outrageous. The security guards certainly felt that way!

The defendant didn't deny taking the photos, or what he intended to do with them when he got home. His argument was that no-one watching him take the photos would find his behaviour questionable because he didn't include either DS2 or my face in any of the images.

In sentencing the Judge said to him (In that booming deep voice they use, like the one at the beginning of ?Porridge?) ????.

?[Defendant's full name], you have pled guilty to an offence of Outraging Public Decency. You are what many members of the public would refer to as a DIRTY OLD MAN.?

Which was quite satisfying.

He has been fined £650 plus court costs of £250. Not an enormous sum, but he does now have a criminal record which seems like justice to me.

And a relatively important precedent has been set in that people can't just take any old photo they like any old time, even in public, if the subject matter is offensive.

OP posts:

Original poster

CinnabarRed · 22/06/2011 10:39

One last irony was that our nanny is currently on jury service at the same crown court! Obviously she, I and the witness support people all made sure that she couldn't be called for that case, and she was separated from the other jurors so she couldn't have influenced their decision (although it didn't come to that in the end). What are the chances?

OP posts:

Flisspaps · 22/06/2011 10:48

Good for you, and quite right from the Judge - what a dirty old man!

Allinabinbag · 22/06/2011 10:50

CinnabarRed, thanks for coming back and reporting on this for us, I remember your original post. How horrid for you to have this happen, and indeed justice was served.

littleducks · 22/06/2011 10:51

I saw a 'dirty old man' do a very similar thing, to a young woman on the metro esclator with her mother in Paris.....horrid

Glad the defendant pleaded guilty and it wasnt so much hassle for you

eurochick · 22/06/2011 11:23

Even if allowed, I would avoid taking the baby into the courtroom with you. You will be nervous and the room will be tense. I think there is a high chance the baby will pick up on this and start yowling. Much better to leave the baby outside with a friend and some expressed milk and ask for frequent breaks. Court sessions are typically only 2.5 hrs (10.30-1 for the morning session, 2-4.30 for the afternoon) so you are not talking about being away from the baby for an entire day or anything (even assuming you will be giving evidence for that long). And if you asked for a break in each session, you would only be away from the baby for around an hour at a time.

The CPS might be able to give you an estimate of how long you will be giving evidence for BUT any cross examination will be entirely in the hands of the other side's lawyers, so the CPS will only be able to guess at how long they will want to spend with you.

eurochick · 22/06/2011 11:23

Just seen your update. Glad it has been resolved.

Andrewofgg · 22/06/2011 19:52

I have (professionally) often seen such tiny babies in court and nobody minds. The world has moved on. Just turn up with DC and nobody will stop you. And good luck.

When it is all over come and tell us (no names) what it was about!

FabbyChic · 22/06/2011 19:58

YOu can express your milk and leave your baby with a family member or child minder.

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 22/06/2011 20:00

Fabby do you ever engage your brain before posting??
You really should try it sometime

Merle · 22/06/2011 20:20

Cinnabar I practise in both the magistrates and crown courts and I want to repeat the words of encouragement and advice others have given.

I am guessing that the trial will be Aug/Sept, if the preliminary hearing was in May.

When you get your witness warning letter, write back to Witness Care, setting out your needs. I think everyone will bend over backwards to accommodate your and your baby, for instance you could ask to be on stand-by, at home, until you are actually needed.

I have never known a baby in court during a trial, but it seems from what others have said that it does happen. If you were my witness I might be concerned that the baby being there could distract your concentration, but ultimately it would be a matter for you as to in what circs you felt most comfortable. The evidence in the case sounds as if it might be a bit 'ugh', so you might decide you'd rather have your baby away from this (I know he/she won't understand this, but even so you might feel like this when the time comes). Anyway all the details can be sorted out nearer the time. Good luck.

Merle · 22/06/2011 20:23

Forgot to say that there will be a room at court where you can wait and/or leave your baby. Possibly someone from Witness Support or an usher would babysit. Seriously, they will all be volunteering, you will be the post popular person in the court.

Merle · 22/06/2011 20:24