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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be really frightened watching this bullying tragedy....

15 replies

DontGoCurly · 12/04/2011 22:26

..young girl who took her own life after being bullied shortly after her family moved to America ...Phoebe Prince :'(

It terrifys me that any child could go through this or put another child through this...

OP posts:
tallulahxhunny · 12/04/2011 22:28

its tragic but happens more often than you think. :(

DontGoCurly · 12/04/2011 22:51

The frightening thing is the two boys are facing statutory rape and the 'mean girls' will probably get off on the 'civil rights violations' for the real cause of her suicide.

So because the boys had sex with her they face felony charges. Probably technically quite right they will take the hit because it's such an emotive high-profile case.

But the girls who really hounded her and drove her to suicide will get a slap on the wrists.

Extremely unjust to Phoebe and possibly the boys if they are made to carry the political can for this?

OP posts:
YouaretooniceNOT · 12/04/2011 22:57

Is the link broken OP?

Cloudydays · 13/04/2011 00:13

This is a terribly sad story and obviously Phoebe and her family are deserving of nothing but our compassion in the wake of such a tragedy.

But I believe that the witch hunt that took place after her suicide and the criminalisation of these other kids is a disgrace. A teenaged girl whose boyfriend dumps her for the beautiful new girl calls that new girl an "Irish whore." That's pretty mean. That's not a very nice way to behave. But it doesn't make her responsible for the new girl's subsequent suicide, for God's sake. The problem with this case is that the 'bullied to death' claim comes from understandable outrage at the cumulative mean words or acts of six different people. And not, it seems, in any orchestrated way. None of the girls personally did much more than the gossiping and namecalling that is (sadly) typical of some girls this age, particularly when two of them are interested in the same boy. As for the boys, yes, they apparently had consensual sex with another student in their school. I'm not saying that any of this is right, or that it's not a big deal, or that it shouldn't be addressed.

But when you look more closely at this story, it's clear that this was a matter of a bunch of teenaged girls fighting over boys. Who 'stole' whose boyfriend, who's in with the popular kids and who isn't. It does seem that the girls were mean to each other, and called each other 'bitch' and 'whore' and other awful things. Phoebe was vulnerable; she had a history of self harm back in Ireland and she was suffering though a family breakdown. The story isn't anywhere near as black and white as the media (particularly in Ireland) has made it out to be: that Phoebe moved to another country and was set upon by caricature-esque 'mean girls' who gleefully hounded her to her death.

I have thought about how I'd feel if Phoebe were my daughter, and I'm sure that I'd want the other kids sentenced harshly and made examples of. But if I were Phoebe's mother, I probably couldn't be objective and dispassionate, and the law should be both of those things. I have also thought about how I'd feel if my teenaged dd was fighting with a classmate over a boy, and called her a slut or a bitch. I'd be terribly disappointed in and upset with dd. But if that classmate, who also had other emotional problems of which my dd may not have been aware (or may not have had the maturity and knowledge to recognise or understand) later killed herself, I would not consider my teenaged dd to be responsible for the other girl's tragic decision to take her own life. Would you?

Again, I am not saying that what happened to Phoebe was ok. But it's no more 'ok' to demonise the other kids involved in this high school drama gone horribly wrong. This case should be a wake up call that makes us all angry enough to do something about bullying in schools, and to protect vulnerable kids like Phoebe, but scapegoating other kids is missing the point entirely.

expatinscotland · 13/04/2011 00:25

'But the girls who really hounded her and drove her to suicide will get a slap on the wrists.'

No they probably won't. Not there. And they are not 'kids' in the state court of law and were not at the time of the crime for which they will be tried. They are not being demonised and they are not being scapegoated. They are defendants to be tried by a jury on the charges of which they stand accused.

IMO, they deserve felony records at the least, so that every time they go to apply for a job, for credit, for even a lease on an apartment they'll have to admit their crime. Hopefully, that is what they will come away with.

The boys, too. Hope they are successfully prosecuted. Hope they all are.

I have followed this case long before this thread even started, though it's not in my home state.

Forget all this hand-wringing bullshit, the body count is getting too high for that there for that.

messymammy · 13/04/2011 00:47

cloudydays I totally agree with everything you said,so much more eloquently put than i could too! :)
I'm Irish and was bullied in school and I've had a loved one murdered,so I have lots of conflicting emotions regarding this case.
I wouldn't ever expect a child to face a felony charge over this.(under 18=child imo)These girls were bitches,yes,most girls at that age are.But murderers?no,I dont believe so.They didnt take a knife to her,they didnt give her drugs to od on.Ok they fuelled the distress she was under,but find me a teen not distressed to some degree.
Alot of the media reaction in Ireland has been led by tv3(the more tabloidy station,lots of programmes focussed on extremes in society,and somewhat of a lack of credibility regarding quality journalism) and I'm not sure if it accurately reflects my,and lots others',opinions.
None of this was fair to Phoebe,but hounding others on the back of her death is hardly fair to them either.It should surely be a red flag to schools internationally?An example of the worst case scenario?An example of how not to do things?

HibernoCaledonian · 13/04/2011 01:03

YouaretooniceNOT - The link is geolocked. You can only access it from the Republic of Ireland.

This is a link to the Wikipedia page about Phoebe Prince.

potoftea · 13/04/2011 08:56

cloudydays said exactly what I was thinking, but much more clearly!

I was bullied at 13 and my health suffered badly, and my personality changed then forever. But looking back the bullying wasn't really that bad, I've heard of much worse. But I was very un-streetwise, and immature, and just couldn't cope with it. So while I think the girls who bullied me were mean and horrible, I don't think it would've been just to punish them if I had committed suicide; they should've been punished for the bullying, but not my reaction to it.

Phoebe had also been bullied in Ireland, so probably found the new bullying even harder to cope with as a result. So should the girls who bullied here in her previous school also be punished, because their actions probably did have some bearing on her death?

And there is one boy who's only crime is having sex with her. He wasn't involved with the bullying and in fact was her friend. I think it's horrifying that he may be punished for having consensual sex. His life may be ruined because he had sex with a classmate who was younger than him.

holyShmoley · 13/04/2011 09:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 13/04/2011 11:05

It sounds like this girl was pretty troubled before the move to America, and while bullying is unacceptable, I agree with Cloudydays that these other teens are being demonized excessively when there was no intent on their part for Prince to die, nasty though their behaviour was.

Cloudydays · 13/04/2011 19:33

Hi messymammy I agree, TV3 has a lot to answer for, and not just in regard to this case!

I admit that I'm a bit sensitive to how the coverage of this story went, because though I've lived in Ireland for more than a decade, I am originally from the same region as where this awful thing took place.

I felt that a lot of the media coverage here (in Ireland) played on the idea that this was a naive, innocent "one of our own" who was set upon by nasty, evil American high schoolers like the ones you see as the villians in high school drama TV and movies.

Though that TV3 documentary was awful (not just because of its content; all of TV3s docs are awful!), IMHO it was an article by Donal Lynch in the Irish Independent that best illustrated the media bias in Ireland regarding this story. Lynch wrote of how the "girl with the gorgeous, lilting accent had arrived full of dreams for a new life... and now the citizens of the most Irish-American of all US States would send her ashes home in a jar." He contrasted that gorgeous lilt with the "broad, flat accents" of the locals and described South Hadley as a "fairly grim, lower-middle-class town" in stark contrast to Phoebe's home in Clare, "a small seaside hamlet which nestles on the Co Clare coast," and concluded on the comforting Hmm note that "Phoebe is at peace, back home in Co Clare, where the Mean Girls of South Hadley can not touch her."

Lynch also names and shames a local girl who was not one of the bullies for "speak[ing] on camera to reporters about her shock and upset at Phoebe's death" and days later being pictured "laughing at [a school dance] with a boy who had gone out with Phoebe. He posted the pictures on his Facebook page. Both [the girl] and the boy refused to comment when contacted." Why were they contacted? To explain themselves to Donal Lynch? For acting like kids? Tell me that doesn't sound like a witch hunt.

As an American (who is from that region and speaks in that accent!! Angry ) I was offended by the tone of the coverage, but as an (naturalised) Irishwoman who works with at-risk youth here, I was even more Angry that the Irish press chose to make this into a story about how awful American schools / teenagers are, rather than recognising that bullying happens in Ireland too, and youth suicide is a huge issue here. Lynch wrote that "initially Phoebe's death was treated as another teen suicide -- a tragically regular occurrence in US public schools" but neglected to mention the fact that Ireland's youth suicide rate is higher than the rate in the US (15.9 per 100,000 compared to 10.2 per 100,000 :( ).

As potoftea said, Phoebe was also bullied in that lovely seaside hamlet in Clare, yet the press here ignored the opportunity to highlight the seriousness of bullying in Ireland and instead treated Phoebe's death as a tabloid story complete with foreign baddies.

Sorry for the rant - directed only at the Independent, TV3 and their ilk, not at anyone here. Obviously this has been annoying me for awhile. Is my righteous indignation showing? Blush

Cloudydays · 13/04/2011 19:34

link to article in case anyone's interested

mayorquimby · 13/04/2011 19:57

your mistake there was watching TV3 or reading the Indo. Both are absolute tabloid rags.
my mates is one of the main directors/producers of the TV3 docs. Blush
I rightly slate him for the majority of their out-put and question him on when his "Irelands fattest teenage dog with an ASBO" documentary will be shown

Cloudydays · 13/04/2011 20:35

Grin I might have to watch that one, quimby

Maryz · 13/04/2011 20:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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