Is it my fault and what can I do?

[flyingspaghettimonster]

This is hard to write and also long, sorry.

I had terrible PND both before and after my second child was born - that is hard to say, but important. I felt he was a parasite, not a baby inside me - because I was pregnant I had to stay in England for four months until he arrived while my husband was studying in the States and starting our new life alone, and it was a horrible, lonely time for me. I got depressed and then as soon as he was born, although I was totally able to care for him as I did my daughter, I didn't feel any attachment - if he cried I felt no pang like I did with her, just dealt with him like a robot. Whilst I do love him, now, I still don't feel the same towards him as to my daughter and younger son. It is hard, feeling like this, and I realised recently that I have absolutely no memories of him from earlier than about age 3... can't remember first steps, smiles, potty training, weaning, anything. People tell me things about that time and reminisce and I find myself thinking 'really? I don't remember that'. It is really sad.

he is now 5 and makes being his mummy so hard. I try to treat him the same as the other two kids, if anything I err on the side of giving him more than them - more gifts, more of his own way, because I always feel guilty for feeling less emotionally attached to him (I never bonded with him and that is so upsetting to me - I am always terrified he will realise so try to hide it with 'I love you's, gifts. Sometimes I hug him and am really aware how forced it is for me to make the concious decision to hug him, in comparison with the millions of hugs and kisses the baby gets a day that are as natural as breathing :-(

I have to add, my husband does not have this problem with him at all - so he gets lots of affection and hugs from his Dad, and I am not a naturally huggy person so don't hug my daughter more than him either - only the baby gets smothered in love and the kids seem fine with that - they adore each other.

My problem is, he is so hard to love! He is a grouchy, pessimistic, whiny boy. He has a sweet life; we go to fun places all the time, he gets to play computer games and go to the local theme park or zoo at weekends, meals out, play dates... yet he is never truly happy. Every day involves whinging from morning till evening. Why can't he have/get/wear/do... it is sometimes ringing in my ears hours after he goes to bed, because it is so relentless. A day could involve a trip to the zoo, lunch at macdonalds, playing his computer game and watching a movie... he would still whine because maybe he didn't get a gift, or maybe he didn't get as long as he wanted on his game etc etc... He can never just be content and realise he was given a good day. If we go to the theme park, we didn't go on his favourite ride as many times as he wanted, or he didn't get an ice cream, or we left too early...

People tell me it is a stage, but he is 5 now and it has been years. He's the middle child so I wonder if he is playing up to get more attention - but we really try hard to give him attention with the others. I guess he feels like the bad kid because his older sister is perfect all the time - she is an honour roll, grade A student who thrives on being a goody-goody, and his little brother is the happiest little boy ever, who literally jumps up and down saying ''appy! 'appy!' because he thinks life is so good. I just feel so sad that middley is going through life feeling hard done by when I do everything I can to make the kids happy. The only thing I don't do is give into him whining for a present all the time - he only gets something if he has been good and filled his sticker chart for that week. Even his teachers tell me constantly that he is causing trouble, constantly nagging to be allowed to go to the other kids' houses to play, even though he has been told and told that he can't ask and it is rude.

I guess I know it is largely my fault he is like this. I guess I just want to know what to do about it. We have started sticker chart regimes, and I opened up to his school counsellor after a particularly horrific phone call where the head teacher rang me and said my lovely son had been arguing with a classmate about whether he could go to their sleepover, and when they were teasing him/rejecting him he said 'well then I will get a real gun and shoot you in the face' - this horrified me as we are totally anti-violence and he doesn't watch violent video games or programmes... I don't even know where he got that idea from :-(

Sorry for the long OP. Advice would be good, gentle advice would be even better. I feel shit enough already for not loving him enough.

The most basic free treatment for all depression:

Exercise, preferably in an outdoor green space. Provides a seratonin boost. You could do a speed walk pushing the pram through a park.

Sleep. A good sleep routine, as much as is possible with a baby!

Time for you. Again, difficult with children. It could be an hour a week when you take yourself off and have a long bath, or you leave your DH in with the children and sit in a coffee shop or send him out with the children whilst you read a book. It needs to be utter peace - no interruptions- and no using it to catch up on housework or sort out bills.

Train yourself out of reflex negative thoughts. Every time you think of your DS in a negative way consciously stop yourself from going down that path and focus it on something else. The more time you spend thinking about it, the more it reinforces this as fact in your brain, so that in time, the very mention or sight of your DS triggers negative feelings. It also applies to negative thoughts about you and your parenting. It sounds daft but if you persist it really does help. Focus on the positives in your life - all of us spend more time thinking about what we haven't got/done/accomplished than the things we have.

Reducing stress. Stress can add to/cause depression. Sometimes we are unaware of exactly how tense we are until we've truly relaxed. Try to identify and address as many areas of stress in your life as you can. Some might be things outside of your control, but some will be fixable. Talk about the specific things that are stressing you out with your DH and see if you can work out easier ways of doing things.

Talking. You might not be able to afford professional help but there are lots of resources out there online and in RL. You're not a bad mother or a bad person, and lots of women have had the same issues as you. Look around for support groups, books, websites etc. It must be difficult to reach out when you had such a shit response last time, but it will be worth it.

I don't understand why you're insurance is so bad. I'd have thought that pretty much covers the price of a doctors visit and prescription

How about planned parenthood, could they offer some services that might be of use?

So sorry you're going through this, but I think it is very hard to fix without some professional input.

I live in the US and while we have great health insurance I have neigotiated hospital bills and pharmacy bills to ensure we get care at an affordable cost. First things first is to tell your DH to tell his doctor you are struggling to afford medication for both you and your DH. They will give you samples and if they don't ask for them. They are able to order samples from the drug company and the dr can give them to you for free.

If you really don't want to ask for help from your Dr see if Walmart or Target can fill your scripts as part of their $4.99 deal (30 day supply for $4.99). If not, go online to see who can fill your scipts for the least amount. I got DH medication down from $325 to $85 a month by using an online mail order pharmacy and ordering a 6 month supply at a time (they arrive in monthly packs and will refund any unopened packs). The best website to use for searching low scipt prices is www.pharmacychecker.com. I always check here before I refill and I ask for a refund.

Depending on the state that you live in there is additional help for those suffering from PND. As a female you should have a regular dr as well as an obn. Your obn is better trained and has more resources available to them to help with a problem which is PND related. Here in the US you see your obn annually for a smear and HPV test so you can visit once and get your smear and referral. To find an obn speak to other mothers or ask on the US thread under living overseas.

You should also look into having a HSA (Health Savings Account). Do a google and read up. Obamacare screwed us over by reducing which expenses are covered from these accounts but basically any script and co-pay is still covered. These accounts allow you take income pre-tax and set it aside for medical expenses during the year. You have to plan your expenses though because if you have a balance at the end of the year in the account you lose it. Take a look at the irs website (use the search bar otherwise you will never find the article) to find out more information.

Also, since obamacare came in I have found our health insurance costs have sky rocketed and they were denying everything they could for both DH and myself. Once I called up and threatened to sue they changed their mind. Be very calm with them, ask to speak to a manager and complain again and again. Call your senator if they deny something or give you the run around. Since I called upon our Senator (who was brilliant and called the insurance company himself with me on the line) things have been a lot easier.

Thankyou for all the advice. I will definitely be trying to be more positive in my view of my son. I do praise his good behaviour and I think a lot of his negative behaviour is due to tiredness - he is in a great mood right now. I think he probably does play up because he likes to get a negative reaction from me as it is an honest reaction - maybe he senses a fakeness in my positive interactions. I will research some more online about this situation - haven't really done that before, I didn't think PND could last so long so assumed it was over with, but I guess it isn't normal to lose huge chunks of memories like that - so weird, like they were something traumatic rather than cute times with a child. :-(

I definitely agree with those saying I need to stop spoiling him in place of love - I have been actively trying to stop that and have clamped down on it at his grandparents, who are pretty much to blame for the 'I want' situation as they spoil the kids rotten and live right around the corner. At one point he was getting a gift every single time he saw them and apologies if they didn't have something for him - it was horrible breaking him of those expectations, but we are working through it and he is a kid that benefits hugely from routines in a chaotic household, so we are working on that, too.

I am going to ask DH to do something with the other two one day a week so I can start spending alone time with him. I am not sure what we will do, though? Any ideas? I don't want the others to feel they are missing out and a lot of things we would do would normally be family excursions... likewise if I stay home with him and do art time or something, he would feel he is missing out on what his sister is up to...

Anyhow, the kids are going to bed now and I have the house to myself so am off to chill in front of some cheerful movie or other and lighten my mood. Thankyou for all offering constructive criticism rather than berating me too much. I have a lot of work to do to make things right, but I really, really want to do it. I do love him, I do. Maybe I focus so much on worrying I don't love him enough, to not notice how much I do care.

Have a good evening spagmonst

Here is the link to the state website which gives details for support groups in New Jersey. I am pretty sure they are free to attend.

Take a look at your own states website to see what they have. We are very lucky to have had Mary Jo Codey.

OP, I think your relationship with your son is being coloured by your sense of misplaced guilt. You feel guilty for not bonding with him. You feel guilty for him being whiny. You feel guilty regardless of whether you have anything to feel guilty about or not.

I have a friend who got pregnant through contraceptive failure, and whilst distraught considered abortion. She changed her mind and had the baby. But I noticed the difference in how she disciplined her older children and how she didn't discipline this child. Surprise, surprise, this child pushed the boundaries (like every child) and couldn't find them, so became a bit of a brat. Her feelings of guilt at having considered abortion so distressed her that she did everything she could to 'make up' for it - and yes of course the child was quite unaware of 'it', but it was aware that it could get away with all manner of bad behaviour.

It is possible that you are behaving similarly - feeling so guilty at your PND getting in the way that you have given in to him to the extent that he is now a bit spoilt. And then the guilt for that just exacerbates it all. And you keep trying to make amends, and he keeps pushing at the retreating boundaries. Perhaps?

Your experiences around this birth were horrible, truly horrible, and affected you badly. But I really think that you have to forgive yourself for that because it was NOT your fault. None of it. You were unwell, unsupported, and did fantastically well in the circumstances (you said you did not feel attached but did feel fiercely maternal - well, that's a hell sight more than I managed and I was supported).

Your son's behaviour is not just down to you. You may not have given him firm enough boundaries (and that's not a given, I'm just theorising from what you've said and my own experience) but he has a father and grandparents, friends and teachers shaping his personality too. And you KNOW that the grandparents are at the root of the 'I want', absolutely NOT YOUR FAULT.

I really think you need to start being a lot kinder to yourself, as well as firmer with him, before you can put this behind you.

spaggi - if you think your DS is rather like you in personality, then it is possible he will like similar things to you. Can you at all remember what you liked to do as a 5yo, that wasn't gender-specific? You could also try asking him what he would like to do - it might be something as simple as going to the shops with you, or going for an ice cream, or even just going to the park on his own to play ball. If I ask my 3yo DS what he wants to do, it's going to be one of 3 answers: go for a walk in the bush (we're in Australia); go for a strawberry milkshake; or watch his current favourite DVD while having a cuddle with me. (But then he's an only so I can do that for him whenever). Just saying that his wants might be very simple to fulfil.

It sounds like you had shockingly bad treatment during your pg with him - you poor thing! Forgive yourself for that, you weren't very well - sounds like you had AND rather than PND and it went undiagnosed and untreated, shame on your HCPs at the time!

Another thing - you are obviously under a lot of stress with the situation with your DH's health as well. Take it easy on yourself - youhave a lot going on. Again, if your DS is in fact a mini-you, chances are that he is picking up on your stress as well but since he can't process it the same as you, he might be playing up more - again, if you can relax, he might relax with you.

This sounds an awful situation. I think it's great that you acknowledge how you are not feeling and how that is affecting your boy. But that you are more worried about it being on your medical record and having to find the money than you sorting out your issues.

I think you both need counselling tinwork through these problems.

I agree with what a number of people have said about the (understandable) over-compensation which may contribute to the 'whinyness'.
And as you have three children, one-to-one time is a good idea, but is it possible to do with all of them? Even if just an hour? And for both and DH, not just you?
I think if all are seen to be treated 'fairly' there may be a little less competitiveness about attention.
And just simple things, reading, baking, a one-to-one game,not trips out anywhere.

I am so sorry you have suffered so much spag. I agree that the guilt you feel is colouring how you relate to your son. It is shocking that you didn't receive adequate and appropriate care when you were in the thick of your illness, which has left a legacy of guilt and trauma.

Like other posters, I suggest you make it a matter of urgency to address this problem, either stateside or at home (I am assuming you are british?). It seems to me that the largest part of your interaction with ds is guilt - guilt about the past and continuing guilt about the present. He will probaly have unconsciously picked up on your guilt (not lack of love!) and it could be at the root of his whiney behaviour - also that you are spoiling him. If I had a magic wand I would wish away that huge truckload of guilt - I think you would find there is very little left in the way of angst if it was gone. You had a terrible time spag, you did your best and have done incredibly well in the circumstances: please don't blame yourself but see that you were ill and didn't receive appropriate or effective treatment, instead you felt judged for your illness - a double bind.

YOu are far from alone in what you have experienced btw, just that nobody talks about it but soldiers on. I also had PND with my second (ds) who is now in his 20s and, like your situation, we are very similar in character and temperament. I know I could feel guilty for the rest of my life but I must not allow myself to do that. I did my best, I was very ill, I am not a bad woman or a bad mother - and neither are you. I am very sad that I missed so much of his early years (completely can't remember ) but that's how it went - I didn't ask for that, didn't want it, I was ill. The past is gone and what happens now is more important.

You do need counselling for not only the issues with your son and PND but also the childhood abuse. I would say you need to make this a priority, even if you have to move to receive it; though I hope you can get something stateside if your family wishes to stay there. I would also say that 1:1 needs to be with all your children, not just your son - he can't be singled out. I also think a whole day may be too long, a few hours would do it and would be more manageable if you are taking time for 1:1s with the others too.

I completely get how you feel horrified at the italian woman's 'perfect' interaction with your son, how it rubs salt in your wounds. She will not have achieved more in a few days/weeks than you have in 5 years, that's impossible btw - you are his mum, nothing can change that. I also don't want to set the cat amongst the pigeons, but I am a bit that she cut his hair - did she ask you if she could? She may mean well but I think she may have overstepped a boundary if she cut his hair without your permission; and it may be that your guilt assumes you have no right to protest?

Firstly ignore the comments that you PND is the sole cause for your sons behaviour. The most eminent psychologist or psychiatrist would not make that statement without talking to and observationing you and your son. Some of it could be personality, concentrate on building your relationship and not your guilt.

If you cannot go for counselling then there are lots of self help books that you could read about your own abuse, PND and perhaps your sons behaviour. This will give you insight which is always the first step to solving a problem. The idea of replacing negitive thoughts with positive ones comes under Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT). You will find lots of self help stuff on this.

As others have said stop the giving of material items. Get your inlaws to agree to this, perhaps a savings account instead?. Is the school offering any help? Can you get your son involved in team games. Children learn alot by being in and learning to be a good team member. It may be good for his self esteem and there would be 'games' and meetings that you could attend as a family and without the other children.

Would also like to add tht he may have been very unsettled by your husbands illness. Children are effected differently depending on their age, personality and place in the family.

good post birds - and good point about OPs husband's illness.

It sounds like you're getting some great advice here, but if I could add anything I will just say that it sounds like you are beating yourself up way too much here, and posts such as Fab's above aren't particularly insightful.

You may however be spoiling him a little, hence the wingeiness.

My 5 year old is a real winger and sometimes it seems as if nothing I do is enough for her. If anything I bonded with her much better than with dd1, so I feel that guilt thing sometimes with dd1, yet she is an absolute poppet.

Just think it may be more to do with nature than nurture.

Good post Want2bsupermum - some great, practical tips.

I think there are a number of things you can do.

1. Spend some time alone with him once a week doing something that is fun. It is hard to bond with someone if you never have good times together.

1. Don't blame him for always asking for more and never being satisfied. It is fairly typical behaviour for lots of children his age. But I also wonder if he senses he is not getting something that he wants i.e. to feel bonded with you. A child his age may not know what is missing, but feel that something is missing. So his constant feeling of never being satisfied may not actually be a fixed part of his personality, but a reaction to a lack of bonding with you.

1. Try and find at least 3 things every day that you can say to him that are positive about him. IMO doesn't matter if it is forced - but he needs to have positive attention and you need to recognise some of the positive bits of him - everyone has positive bits.

1. I know it is hard,but stop trying to compare him to his siblings. Your DD is a "good" girl. This is typical behaviour for 1st borns and IME even more for 1st born girls. She is behaving the way she does in reaction to how she is treated and the place she has in your family.

Your youngest is very happy. Again younger children tend to be more relaxed because by that time, their parents have learnt more about parenting and are more relaxed with them. You smother him in kisses and love, so it is not surprising he is a happy child.

1. Your son is very very young at only 5 years old. Try not to label him in your mind as the pessemistic or difficult one. Try and remember just how young he is and that you and your OH have a massive influence in how he develops.

1. I found the book - how to talk so children will listen and how to listen so children will talk - massively useful in improving how i interacted with my kids.

And I know you can't afford counselling - but you can use the internet for support, so try and hook up on line with other mums who have had pdn in the past and can now offer support. Good luck.