to think we are not the landlord's servants?

[grumpytenant]

We rent a house, including a washing machine.
On my due date (I am now 40+2) the washing machine broke.
DP called the landlord, couldn't get hold of him, called his son, who can contact his father abroad, blah blah, complete palaver, anyway the long & the short of it is 12 hours later the son turned up to have a fiddle with the washing machine. (We can't just call an engineer because then the landlord won't pay for it.)

He arrived in the middle of dinner time and then co-opted DP into spending 4 hours messing about trying to fix it (doing all the normal stuff we had done already, reading the manual etc), fetching buckets, moving things around, etc. I knew he wouldn't fix it but also knew his dad is too tight to call a pro until he had put his son through all this. DP was knackered before all this started.

Eventually he left, too late to do anything or call anyone, saying he would get an engineer the next day. So: beautiful washing day wasted, no resolution, wasted evening that DP had earmarked for other stuff, and spent chasing around after someone else (while I admittedly sat on my extremely large arse and finished my dinner)

AIBU to think that if you are renting a house you are paying the landlord to sort this shit out, and that if he is too tight to just call a pro to fix the washing machine, he should at least get his son to bring his own helper to fiddle pointlessly about with it?

I don't have a spare quarter of a million quid (plus another £200 for the washing machine). IMO this doesn't make me morally fair game to be treated like crap. If I were going to rent a tool from a hardware shop and objected to being messed about, kept waiting, having arbitrary costs added on, being given random extra tasks to do to maintain the shop and strange unmeetable conditions imposed as blatant excuse to retain part of the deposit, would people sneer at me and say "well buy your own chainsaw then?"

If I were renting a chainsaw the hardware shop keeper wouldn't be trying to wriggle out of the costs of running a business, maybe trying to get me to pay for his insurance or window cleaning or even do it myself. He wouldn't expect to be in business for free. He wouldn't expect gratitude for graciously charging me money to use his stuff.

Yes, but grumpytenant, your landlord responded within 6 hours. And called out an engineer within two days. I don't really think you have much to complain about here. Sorry, but it comes across as you just not liking renting very much rather than any fault on the part of your landlord.

If it were my own washing machine which had broken, I'd probably get DP to try and fix it, maybe get an engineer or just buy a new one, but all this would take about 10 days for me to get round to it. By contrast, we never take longer than a day to try and fix something that breaks in a tenanted flat. I think sometimes tenants are a little cushioned from reality (not those in obviously grotty rented properties).

Sorry you're feeling like that grumpy. It gets me down too - people often just don't think (sorry *nijinksy but you didn't, did you?) and assume tenants are lazy feckers who ought to buy a place or be grateful for whatever's thrown at them.

I think it's right that there are some awful tenants out there, it's true.

To me, the bottom line is this: if you're a landlord, it's because you chose to do that. It might be that you feel really pushed into that choice, like my mate who bought a house in a cheap area then got made redundant and could only find a new job in a much more expensive area, so had to rent the old house out while it was on the market. But essentially, you have the money for a place to live, and a place to rent.

If you're a tenant, it may be through pure choice. But it's likely to be because you simply cannot afford to buy a home. You are therefore at the mercy of letting agents and landlords and they know that. They know that you probably can't risk making a fuss if they break the law, because you can't afford another set of agent's fees if they kick you out. They know that if they demand extra fees, you'll probably pay up - again, because it'll be more expensive if you get kicked out.

My current landlords are lovely (the letting agents are another story I admit), and I'm really pleased we ended up with them. But I do think the balance of power is canted far too far in favour of letting agents and not tenants.

I am not complaining about the washing machine being fixed - I am glad it was fixed. I am complaining about the landlord's assumption that we are on hand to assist and our time doesn't matter. You just wouldn't get this if you rented a car. If you booked a hire car and turned up and it was faulty or dirty, they wouldn't throw a rag at you and say "gis a hand" - you would get apologies and a replacement, an upgrade if necessary. EVEN IF you were hiring a car - as opposed to buying one - because, shock horror, you can't afford to own your own car.

I think there is a specific culture of hobbyist landlords in this country where they don't recognise what they are doing as a job that should cost them work and money too (as the hardware shops do, the pubs, restaurants, car hire places, etc). I know they are doing it to make money, but they should accept that there are costs too. And I think they think they are better than tenants.

By the way - the email on xmas eve sounds very rude, especially if she was asking for new stuff that was not agreed (not just stuff to be mended) - but why is it so terrible that these things be done without inconveniencing the tenant? Why should she be present, dancing about moving furniture or finding torches to shine into dark spaces, or what do you expect? Seriously, that your convenience is more important as you are the mighty property owner? No - she is the customer.

I'd be happy to go a bit out of my way for the landlord/agent's convenience, tba. It's part of the give and take. What I would be fed up with is someone doing a dangerous bodge job, or not getting something fixed in reasonable time.

Now Grumpytenant you are reading things into this that weren't there.

"By the way - the email on xmas eve sounds very rude, especially if she was asking for new stuff that was not agreed (not just stuff to be mended) - but why is it so terrible that these things be done without inconveniencing the tenant? Why should she be present, dancing about moving furniture or finding torches to shine into dark spaces, or what do you expect? Seriously, that your convenience is more important as you are the mighty property owner? No - she is the customer."

It is up to the tenant to be there to let in repair personnel, unless they want more delays. Unless they are paying a premium rent for a concierge service. And believe me, to get a full time person at your instant beck and call so that you will never be inconvenienced by the normal household breakages that the average person has to put up with would cost far more than the average rent. Otherwise the landlord only has a duty to act reasonably.

However in this case it was a simple economic and business decision. She was costing me more money in time and breaking things than she was bringing in in rent. She was also unpleasant to deal with. Hence I ended the contract. She got two months notice but was still very upset as she lost an excellent property in the best part of town at a good rent.

My flats, all being town centre properties in excellent condition, are all easy to rent. I tend not to have voids at all. But there are enough of good, well mannered, reasonable tenants out there not to put up with a rude one!

I don't use letting agents by the way. They are completely unregulated and I don't want to run the risk of my properties being managed by a school leaver.

tenants are a little cushioned from reality - LOL!!!!!

and you!!

nijinsky, that tenant sounds very rude and a couple of screws loose - was she very young by any chance?

I agree with you that lettings agents being unregulated is a big problem. It makes me quite angry that anyone can set up as a lettings agent and they still often have an immensely superior attitude. My current landlords, DH and I ended up sitting round a table working out how to get a contract written up because the agency was making such a mess. And they always seem stunned and offended we might want to read the contract before signing it - one of us said it 'looked as if we didn't trust them'. Er, really?

Anyway, I think I agree with you not grumpy on the last thing about convenience, but I might feel much more like her if I were 9 months pregnant and someone had spend 4 hours bossing my DH around in my own home, tba.

I'm not cushioned from reality at all. Raising the finance on your own for buy to lets tends not to do that to you Youaretoonice.

LittleRedDragon mid thirties, rather bitter and a real chip on her shoulder. Younger tenants more prone not to respecting the terms of the lease and leaving without notice.

As a lawyer, I do think letting agents doing what is basically legal work (sometimes drawing up leases and getting them signed) is on very shaky ground. I am astonished that they are not licensed. Although then no doubt I would be compelled to use one, and considering I sued the last one for unauthorised and unproven deductions, that is something I want to avoid.

nijinksy, sorry, I don't want this to get argy as it's not been so far, but you are a bit cushioned from reality you know. You suggested that we should just buy a house if we don't like renting - it has a bit of a 'let them eat cake' ring to it, really!

I wish, wish, wish that lettings agents had to have approved qualifications. Or at least knew how to read their own contracts. But there's very little we can do - there's nothing to stop them evicting us when the contract is up and we can't afford to pay agent fees every six months (who can?).