To think that RE should be part of the National Curriculum and include broad and balanced teaching about different religious and non-religious beliefs, including Humanism?

[ForkfulOfTabouleh]

At the moment RE is not on the National Curriculum but it is a compulsory subject for all schools to teach!

This thread has been inspired by all the recent ones about religious beliefs in schools being presented to DC as facts rather than beliefs.

I had a look at the British Humanist Association website and found that there is a DoE NC consultation open until April 14 - see here - you can use this opportunity to put your views forward on this matter.

"Current arrangements for locally determined RE mean that its provision is patchy in quality and local syllabuses do not include non-religious beliefs."

Every region has its own "standing advisory council on religious education" - google that with the name of the area you live in and you will find details - I think that these apply to non-faith schools as faith schools set their own RE curriculum.

Some areas have altered their guidance to ensure that athiesm is covered.

My DS is not at school yet but it does worry me that he will be taught as fact what I would prefer him to be taught as "some people believe".

AIBU?

It should be taught as a belief and not a fact, and all religions should come under the dictate of RE and put forward all together.

I used to teach RE (atheist before anyone wonders) so this may be out of date...

If you are in a non-religious state school then you are taught RE from the Basic Curriculum and it deals with facts in KS3 of the "big 6" religions with a bit of other stuff thrown in, depending on the teacher. KS4 looks more at why people believe what they do, rather than what they believe and can look in more depth at one or two of the religions. GCSE study tends to include basic ethics from a religious perspective. A level depends on which curriculum you are following.

At primary level its very facts based about "Some may believe this" unless you are at a CoE or RC school, where the focus will be on Christianity from the perspective of that denomination.

Unfortunately as it stands if your only local primary school is a religious one, you're stuck with being taught that religion, so no YANBU from that perspective.

I think its important that everyone has a good understanding of what people may believe in, why they believe it and how they go about worship as it promotes understanding and tolerance.

But, babyheave, we hear time and time again on MN of DC in non-faith primary schools being taught religion as "fact".

Plus how is teaching "some people may believe this" compatible with the daily act of worship (usually Christian) - so some people believe this becomes - this is what we do here in school - pray/worship.

I really think it is the assemblies which I have the most issue with not the actual RE lessons.

RE is taught as broad and balanced teaching about different religions, see babyheave's post. It is not taught as 'fact' only in that 'Christians believe x' 'Muslims believe y' in which case it is a fact that Christians believe in the resurrection and Muslims believe that the Koran is the absolute and unchanged word of God.

No to it becoming an NC subject - it would become constricted by what the NC demands as opposed to what the local SACREs want. The whole point of the SACREs is that the local RE curriculum reflects the local area - are you going to want much teaching about Judaism for example in a predominantly Muslim area for example?

Scaryteacher - why do we see MNers posting about DCs coming home stating religious beliefs as facts?

This is obviously more of a problem in primary school and possibly due to assemblies. There have been threads about evangelical Christian assemblies which have scared DCs.

You say that SACREs reflect the local area - but surely SACREs are never that local - eg they cover counties/LEAs and within any area there will be a wide range of religious beliefs.

And actually yes I do think that DC in a predominantly Muslim area should learn about Judaism! All DC should learn about all the religious beliefs!

RE should be in the national curriculum, should be recognised as a valid subject by being part of the EnglishBacc.

Unfortunately some teaching of RE in schools is still really bad. I was a TA about 5 years ago in a secondary and they were still teaching Christianity as FACT, despite it not being a religious school. A school I taught in a few years ago didn't teach RE for 2 years as they had no qualified staff.

Good RE teaching is really valuable and important to society. Bad RE teaching is worse than useless.

Just to clarify, by fact I meant as in a fact about a religion, rather than the tenets of that religion being taught as factually correct.

e.g. "Christians worship in a church", not "The right place to worship god is a church" IYSWIM.

When my child comes home and talks about what he has learned in school as fact I generally put him right.

'Scaryteacher - why do we see MNers posting about DCs coming home stating religious beliefs as facts?'

Well, it could be because the little dears weren't listening? I'm amazed by the times my 15 yo comes home and says Mrs X said y today. Really? Then I check, and it isn't always the case that what is coming home is accurate. Not being a primary teacher, I couldn't comment about primary RE, but as s secondary RE teacher I can comment, and with all the RE teachers I know, we do not teach religious belief as a fact, we teach as I said above, i.e: 'It is a fact that Christians believe in the resurrection.'

SACREs are indeed very local, I have taught in Plymouth, Devon and Cornwall, and Cornwall has it's own SACRE, as does Plymouth (Unitary authority) and Devon. Within those places there is certainly not a wide range of religious beliefs and the SACREs make great efforts to ensure that the syllabus encompasses different religions to ensure that the kids are aware of diversity. I imagine that Birmingham being very diverse will present the SACRE there with very different problems, indeed they indicated as much at an RE conference I attended.

VJ32, yes, to RE being in the EBacc, still no to NC status - we have so much more autonomy at KS3 without it, and KS4 is set out according to which exam board one chooses.

'Well, it could be because the little dears weren't listening?'

I suspect that many primary teachers who are Christian don't think carefully enough about how they present info about religions!

As an occasional presenter to adult learners, I take the view that if the audience haven't understood the message it is my fault and not theirs!

Sorry I really really don't get why these SACREs need to be regional?

In an area like Cornwall - with not such a wide range of religious beliefs (by number of people following them?) - but surely in Cornwall there would be at least one of all the major faiths. Therefore in some ways I think it would be even more important to ensure all school children are taught about a diverse range of beliefs. Contrast to Birmingham where by virtue of the multi-cultural environment DC are likely to be aware of the other faiths from seeing eg Diwali celebration etc.

So these SACREs seem to be a duplication of effort plus a waste of tax payer's money. Although the SACRE members are voluntary there are the costs of supporting the committees and there must be LEA staff support for writing documents etc.

I am willing to bet that the differences between the output of the different SACREs cannot possibly be that different. Does anyone know?

I wonder how many parents are aware of the content of their local SACRE policy document?

I'm interested in non-faith schools. Do they have carte blance to set their religious curriculum or are they guided by the religious group that part-funds them.

I wonder how different the curriculums look between faith schools and non faith schools?

I am more certain now that it is the current format of the collective worship aspect of RE which I am opposed to.

Sorry babyheave, but I don't recognise the subject you're describing. I am a catholic, and in my catholic school had the broadest range of religious eduction of any of my non-catholically educated peers. We covered all religions, had visits from members of those religions, visited mosques and temples. Discussions about the differences between catholicism and other religions was encouraged. The ethos of the school was firmly based in catholic principles but in terms of religious education all beliefs were presented as beliefs and not that one was more believable than the other. My children now attend catholic school and benefit from a similarly wide-ranging religious education.

My personal belief is the more we know about each others beliefs the better. Understanding leads to tolerance and respect and couldn't we do with more of that!

Forkful - firstly, just because someone happens to teach RE at primary doesn't mean they are specialist, or that they have any religious affiliation. Why do you assume that primary teachers are Christian?

Teaching adults is very different to teaching children, especially teenagers, as I said, they don't always listen - I know, I have one and have taught thousands.

I made the point that 'SACREs are indeed very local, I have taught in Plymouth, Devon and Cornwall, and Cornwall has it's own SACRE, as does Plymouth (Unitary authority) and Devon. Within those places there is certainly not a wide range of religious beliefs and the SACREs make great efforts to ensure that the syllabus encompasses different religions to ensure that the kids are aware of diversity.'

The comp I taught at in Cornwall was either all Christians or non-believers, there was religious diversity between Evangelical, Methodist or CofE, but that was it. Cornwall is a large and predominantly white and rural county. The whole point of local SACREs is that they have a local input into what is learned and can provide a balance, so in Cornwall, you learn about Sikhism for example at KS2 and the other non-Christian faiths in KS3. It means the syllabus can be tweaked and there is space within the syllabus to teach a unit of our own choosing.

I far preferred the Plymouth RE syllabus to the Cornish one for example, so there is a difference.

If you look at what used to be the Standards site it has lots of Schemes of work and levels there for KS3 RE, as Charles Clarke was very supportive of RE, but didn't want it to be NC.

If you read this media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/religious%20education%20guidance%20in%20schools.pdf it might explain the SACREs better.

As for collective worship, once they get to secondary, it really doesn't happen; you might get an inspirational reading to reflect on, but the Methodist preacher only came in twice a term, and we had assembly twice a week.

dazzling - its been a while since I was teaching. At that time (and maybe it has changed) you had to do a specialist Catholic RE certification to be allowed to teach RE in an RC school, I have no doubt that things may have changed since then though and I'm glad to hear that you had a broad RE education.

Teachers in state schools are not allowed to say "I believe x" or "x religion is the truth". They have to say "Christians believe, Muslims believe, some people believe" etc.

If children are claiming to have been taught religion as fact then they are either:
a) mistaken
b) weren't listening properly
c) have a teacher who is breaking the rules (maye law, I don't know?)
d) are referring to having been told a fact about a religion eg 'Christians celebrate Jesus' resurrection on Easter Day' NOT Jesus rose from the dead on Easter Day.

Exactly manicinsomniac.

This may not be quite the subject but I just want to jump in and say how important I think RE is so that children get a sense of the significant role religion has played in defining culture. I'm a university lecturer (atheist) and so many of my students find it hard to understand works of literature or art because they don't know anything about the cultural references to Christianity in them, e.g. not even some basic bible stories.

Odd story apropos - my DS had a friend round to play and the friend started playing with our wooden Noah's Ark. He referred to Noah and his mum said to him "DS, how do you know about Noah's Ark?" and said that as they weren't Christians they wouldn't have given him a toy Noah's Ark. I thought that was a bit OTT myself.

I wouldn't want schools to teach that any certain belief was 'right' but religion is one of the most fundamental phenomena of the human condition, everyone should learn about it.

I have been considering RE teaching and have spoken to several local teacher training estabs; the assumption is that RE will be dropped and as a result they are warning people not to expect a place after this year's intake .

So looking at primary instead: still hideously competitive but can only work term time (sn kids) and hope to teach in SEN schools which is where my MA sits.

It's a shame; I have an RE degree and it was very much a universalist approach, which I think is so important. OTOH the local school here is faith and I resent the RE input they get but have limited options- even had to sign a form before ds4 had a nursery placement offered saying I accepted it, only state nursery in catchment. Accept or your child goes without.