To wonder why people go on holiday to Dubai

[AllFallDown]

I realise every country has its ethical issues. But Dubai? How can people bear to go to a place being built on slave labour - and not the slave labour of 150 years ago, but right now.

I'll retract the work 'need' from the first paragraph and substitute it with 'want' before anyone some po-faced killjoy points out that I don't 'need' anything of the sort.

Thanks Fellatio...I was just about to pop back and say that I'd love some journo to do a comparison of construction workers pay and conditions in Dubai/India/Singapore/Lebanon/Syria/Jordan/China/Bangladesh.Saudi Arabia...Immigrants all over the world can be exploited by the unscrupulous - let's not forget the poor Chinese souls who were lost in Morecambe Bay not so long ago. I just think there is something very weird about DUBAI coming in for all this negative attention and nowhere else.

I stand by what I said before - yes some people have a very very tough time in Dubai. Some have a tougher time at home and being in Dubai helps improve that life at home no end (I used to smile at the young men getting ready to go home from one of our camps - after a completing a three year contract - some slaves!...They'd dress themselves so beautifully and be very proud to go home having paid for a new house for Mum, or put a younger sibling through three years at school etc etc..)

I won't go anywhere where my ownership of a vagina makes me less of a person in law. Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

the weather in Winter/Spring,the service, the food, the luxury, the beaches, the child friendliness.
Winter Sun

It's very Westernised, as long as you don't go round having sex on the beach or getting horribly drunk.

Chickens you took the words right out of my mouth...

Isn't it amazing how all those who hate Dubai with such vehemence have never been there? I agree with Dubaipieeye, there is much wrong with this place, but don't confuse it with Saudi Arabia and don't think all women are in danger here. My biggest issue is with the way the law is inappropriately and inconsistently applied depending on your skin colour or passport. I feel very safe here, but then I don't drink/take drugs and I don't have sex outside marriage. Most tourists and journalist never venture beyond the "strip". Come out to where I live and see the kids playing on the streets and in the parks in the gorgeous weather (for 6months a year), stroll about at night without fear of being mugged, leave your garage door wide open with all your stuff on view and it won't get pinched. Oh and I can hear bird song constantly in my garden.
I have a live in maid whom I treat with respect and kindness. She supports her family at home on her salary and knows that if she ever wants extra time off or help in any way, she only has to ask. I refuse to feel guilty about employing her.
There's no doubt that some expats get infected with Dubai - itis and turn into chav/new money show offs. They were probably obnoxious in their home country as well. I choose to mix with genuine people from various countries and cultures.
Having said that there is no doubt that Dubai is a concrete jungle where money shouts louder than anything else. I have enjoyed my years here, but am now ready to go back to the UK.

I live in Dubai too and this thread does rather have a smell of ignorance re: what Dubai is really like. I have been to many places on holiday for a fortnight and watched a couple of docs on them - but I still wouldn't go around thinking I knew everything about them inside and out!

Of course there are issues still with migrant workers - but I am surmising that most of those you are referring to here are the ones featured on British TV progs/in newspapers recently btw aren't they? i.e. Indian men (although lots are actually Pakistani btw) working on structures and living in large camp accommodation? dubaipieeye has refered to them above and shown the other side of the coin there I think. As I said, there are still issues of human rights etc (and all this passports taken stuff....) but it's not everyone and it's not everywhere.

Also, there are plenty of other nationalities here too and some posters have made mention of ladies (often Sri Lankan, Filipino, Indian, Ethiopian) who work for households here in Dubai (which is in UAE btw westerngirl) and support their own children back at home. See them through school, uni etc or save to start businesses back in their home countries. The amount they are paid seems very small to us but is quite a lot to them and is certainly enough to save for a few years and then go home with a nice lump-sum for whatever. Not unlike western ex-pats albeit they (westerners) leave with more money as their home countries are far more expensive to live in anyway. Personally, we'd have to stay here for some time to save enough to be able to go home and build a large house on some land but I know that is the plan for many of the women here (I do talk to them in the park etc y'know?!) and they won't have to stay quite so long to do it! However, they have obviously sacrificed more than us as they have left their own families behind - so it is nice to know that they can go home much better off in a short amount of time. And most families here do not confiscate passports or treat badly either!

Anyway - just wanted to add to the thread as it did seem a little harsh to Dubai when, as many people have pointed out, lots of other countries (countries that British people choose to holiday in too....) have a long way to go too with regards catching up with the western world and how it supports its people/workers (minimum wage, healthcare, education etc) But, again, as pointed out above - it's not so long ago that Britain looked a lot like some of these developing nations..... And hey, catch the first tube in the morning in London if you want to see the largely ignored underclass in the UK on their way to their sh*ty (I'm generalising here....) jobs often going unnoticed by anyone else around them. Check out the staff in any hotels you stay in in the UK........they are on minimum wage (hopefully) and thank God/Labour for that! :) but are probably struggling to survive and send money home too. I'm not suggesting they are mistreated in the way many believe all construction workers in Dubai are (and as we've seen - it's not all....) but still, something to think about from your British Ivory Tower.

Without wanting to make this totally political............Dubai ain't a bad place to ride out the recession (avoid the doom and gloom of the current UK situation as far as I can tell from my friends and family who, btw, are DESPERATE to visit us ALL THE BLOODY TIME!) and wait for the farking Tories to do one! Champagne Socialism at its best! Avoid the over-privileged Tories in tax-free Dubai! Happy to pay our taxes and support those less fortunate in the UK when we get back though.......honest we are!

Funnily enough they are discussing the exploitation of immigrant workers who are kept like slaves, raped, abused and mistreated on Radio 4 right now. Ugandan women who have travelled to Iraq. Who in their right mind would want to work as a domestic servant in Iraq? Hundreds and hundreds of African women every year apparently - because in spite of everything it seems like a better deal that staying at home.

I blame the media - selective reporting imo

Go there before making assumptions and generalisations.

All this slavery stuff happens in the UK - you would be naive to think otherwise

x-post with mateysmum............I live somewhere like that too!

The UK will always be home and I do want to go back but, hey, we're alright for the minute and this is a great place to have my two children in these baby years. I don't have to work here (can afford for me not to) and I can enjoy my children as many of my friends would love to but can't afford to.

I know you can't sit back watch bad things happen in the world all the time but, really, I don't think living here in Dubai supports every human rights issue known to man! And agree with mateysmum that some people are confusing Dubai (very progressive for this part of the world) with Saudi or other ME countries when it comes to both treatment of woman and "silly laws". I wear exactly the same as I would at home if only the UK was over 20 degrees all the time!

The one that always gets me? My friends' pics of them with their babies doing Baby Splash or something like that........babies in hardly anything and mums in huge swimsuits and in a freezing local leisure centre pool....brrrr! Opposite here! Mums in bikinis and babies fully covered with sun-hats in gorgeous outdoor pools.......makes me glad to be here for sure! See? It's not all bad! Some of us even have a sense of humour about it! Although agree with mateysmum about people getting infected by Dubai. But, as she says, they were probably idiots in their home country too!

You are right Oli, the slavery thing does happen in the UK but not on the same scale.
IMO life with a wage and shelter is much better than life without. We employed a Sri Lankan woman to do our cleaning and ironing. She told me several times that she woud rather be in Oman working and sending money back to her children than in colombo with nowt.

Good post guardian. We tried to get a visa for Saudi Arabia while we lived in Muscat. Our plan was to drive to Syria and Jordan. The man at the SA embassy told me not to waste my riyals applying. Tourists are seldom given visas and I wouldn't have been able to drive anyway.

I agree with you.

Hi Guardianmummy - do you live in a place beginning with A R? or maybe M or S by any chance?! Off to J**S in a min to get DS.

OOh do I sniff a Dubai meetup coming on? Thanks OP

We like the idea of Dubai but wouldn't dream of going in a million years. On the face of it it looks like a primo destination beacuse of the luxuary and shopping but their ways are most definately not my ways. There are certain places that just don't seem all that woman friendly and Dubai is up there.

From what I understand, western women are free to "be western" within the confines of resorts but the minute you go out to mingle among the people you have to conform to their laws of dress etc. Sorry, but I don't even let my Husband tell me what to wear.

The fact that their justice system is so archaic doesn't score them any points with me either. I can't in all good concience be reading about people being stoned to death in Dubai for the silliest of things and then go there om holiday to support it by spending my money.

I don't think it is self-righteous to have a social conscience. In any case, Dubai is a horrid place and agree with all those that say it is soulless. We thought it was an ugly, concrete rich man's playground. The whole place felt fake and surreal - a 'desert' in all senses of the word.

I'm also a bit baffled by all these people saying they'd love to go to Abu Dhabi...but not Dubai - why? It's not that different to Dubai you know and it is in the SAME country with the SAME labour laws so if you are worried about construction workers...you'd better avoid it!

And to the poster who said there are no trees here...eh?? My brother is a gardener an he couldn't believe how green the place is - especially compared to Lebanon (where his wife is from).

Thank goodness for your reasoned posts Guardian Mummy, I have been dancing up and down with frustration at the ill-informed posts written by people who have never even visited the place on holiday. During our time there we were friends with many normal families trying to earn a living and bring up their children just like ourselves in the same way we do in the UK. The 'dark underbelly' certainly exists but can be found in London too!

Doesn't it all depend on whether you think your actions have both a moral dimension and also consequences?

Yes, there are other places with poor human rights records and maltreatment of their workers, but that doesn't make what goes on there good. And I don't go on holiday to those either.

I think it matters where I spend my money and what I spend it on, as otherwise I am not just condoning but supporting slave labour and the oppression of women.

And before you say that I don't know what I'm talking about, I researched it for a tv programme a few years ago, and what I found out made me very certain that I would not want to go on holiday there.

Sorry PaulaHamilton, but you are confusing Dubai with somewhere else. People do not get stoned to death in Dubai!!!
Provided you don't let it all hang out you can dress exactly as you want here. Women wear shorts and spaghetti straps everywhere. Personally I think it's more polite to cover a bit more flesh and it stops you getting stared at., but nothing will happen if you don't. There is no requirement to cover your hair even.
The restrictions on western women who abide by the law are minimal and ooh how I enjoy the women only queues at the banks/government offices as I complete my business in 2 mins and the blokes stand there for hours. By the wat, the women's only queues are not compulsory, they're just the way the local culture makes its women feel more comfortable.
Anyway, why should I expect to live in a muslim country and behave just as I do at home, it isn't home. Visitors and residents have a responsibility to make themselves aware of local customs and if they don't want to abide by them - don't visit.

I can't stand shopping at the best of times so Dubai has never actually appealled to me.

I prefer Abu Dhabi because to me it is Southwold to Dubai's Southend! AD has more oil money and so has had to rely less on tourism and has not exanded so quickly and so tackily. Dubai has become just like Benidorm in the 70's, and as a result it appeals to slightly richer people but with the same tastes. Abu Dhabi seems to have a slightly more laid back and less showy feel to it, and I'ver been two both places twice.

The way you dress is not set in law. Non muslim women can go out into the souks and towns wearing what the hell they like - (and the Russian prostitutes certainly do ) but once outside the expensive malls and the 5* hotels with their private beaches be prepared to be stared at by the poor immigrant workers, and possibly even groped/assaulted if you are very unlucky - or silly enough to get on a public bus used by immigrant workers. Most of these man don't get to go within ten feet of a woman for years on end. It it not their culture for women to display lots of flesh, and so whether you agree with it or not, when in Rome and all that....just take sensible respectful precautions. The Arab nationals are more likely to just look at you disdainfully and wearily, but then as they are all loosely related to the sheikh they tend to be a bit distainful of everyone non-Arab anyway.

I have only gone to these places as a holiday maker but I have family who lived there for years so I have a slightly different perspective to the average tourist.

I've been to both places twice, sorry.