to double punnish ds for hitting other children at Pre school?

[Ihavebeencreditcrunched]

My DS is 4yr 3mo and is due to start primary in August. Over the last few weeks I have been asked to speak with the teacher 4 times because of ds hitting, (x2), pushing,(x1) other dc, and yesterday throwing a toy that hit a girl in the face. Is this another horrible brain sucking phase? Please tell me ds is not a sociopath!! (sp) Every time I speak with the teacher I wonder if ds is acting oddly compared to other kids and is becoming a violent thug OR is she is making a huge issue of a "phase". Ds has had his fair share of other kids hitting/biting and pushing him. Today someone threw an egg cup at his head Some days he doesn't want to go to school because he says certain kids take his toys, tell him they don't like him, hit him etc....is he acting out because of this or are they acting that way because he is doing it to them ... or are they all irritating pre schoolers who just do nippy stuff to each other.

There are so many possible reasons behind his behaviour including Me & dh being less available since Oct due to renovating two houses, working extra hours and me having surgery. Also, DD (2yr 2mo) is in the full swings of terribles... shouting, hitting, throwing things and tantrums ... which we are working through... and ds is copying her "baby" behaviour wanting carried, coddled, saying no to everything, hitting in frustration etc.

Work etc has settled back to normal over the last few weeks and I am hoping we can get back to our previous routines.

After the first time he hit someone I told him if he did it again he would go to his room after school, which I have been doing . yesterday I intended taking dc to the park after school but after the incident at school I told him we weren't going today but he could go the next day if he did well at school.

I feel that I am punnishing him twice as he was put in time out at school so don't know if that is right or wrong.

DS has a star chart for jobs .. nothing big... washing, dressing and brushing teeth, tidying toys etc which he likes so I started a new school rules sticker book to encourage positive behaviour. He gets to pick a sticker from the ben10 set he wanted and puts it in his book when he follows the school rules.

My head is mince ... as you can read...am I being Ott or not hard enough. I want him to know that I will back the teachers when he misbehaves at school but I also don't want to be overly harsh

First of all, you have my sympathy - you sound like you are coping with an awful lot at the moment.

I have three dses, and at that age they all thumped and pushed eachother - and it didn't mean they are psychopaths - I think it is a normal phase. At that age, he's still learning to manage interactions with other children, and he isn't always going to react the right way - again, I think this is perfectly normal - as you say, he's not the only child who is hitting or taking toys or throwing things at other children in the preschool.

I would suggest that it's not a good idea to punish him again later - at that age I think punishment has to be immediate, and the pre-school should be dealing firmly with any hitting (by any child, not just your ds) when it happens, and emphasising that this isn't the right way to interact with eachother - and teaching the right way, obviously.

I think that you might be better to reinforce the good behaviour - ie, instead of withdrawing a planned treat if he hits someone at pre-school, tell him that there will be a treat if the pre-school tell you that he's been good that day - perhaps a visit to the park or a special pudding - I'm sure you can think of things he'd like.

You can back the teachers at preschool by telling him you are disappointed in his behaviour if he does hit other children, and by reinforcing the good messages about sharing nicely, not hitting etc.

And don't be too hard on yourself - you are, as I said, coping with an awful lot at the moment - a toddler in the terrible twos, doing up houses, the aftermath of illness etc - and I don't think you are doing a bad job at all. I could have written this post when my dses were young - though it was their siblings they were duffing up, not children at preschool - and they are now relatively civilised teenagers (well, as civilised as teenage boys can be - lol), and are a pleasure to be with according to the people who meet them. You will get there too with your ds, I promise.

I wouldn't punish at home when he's already been disciplined at pre-school.

Sounds like you could all enjoy time at the park - good for letting kids run off their energy and lovely in this sunshine too.

I also don;t punish at home for something already punished for and I have a 5 yr old with similar issues. I talk to DS about it and we discuss why (if he can remember) he did it and how people aren;t allowed to throw/hit/push etc and talk about ways he might do things differently. eg "When you feel like ... you should go and tell ... that you are getting cross with X"

Also my ds refelcts very quickly whats happening at home and I found if we had a zero tolerance to anyone shouting at home for example that itstops the sprial into frustration and lashing out.

I would be concerned that he says he doesn;t want to go - thst not pleasant. May be nothing but I would discuss with nursery how you can manage it jointly to make his time there more pleasant.

I wouldn't punish at home if he has already been punished at pre-school, or even if they haven't done anything at pre-school. He is only 4, he won't connet the two events.

I like SDTG about doing something straight from pre-school if the leaders give him a good report. I would do it without going home first.

I reckon it is just a phase. Many children go through them.

Why not help DS model good behaviour for his little sister? "look Ariadne this is ow big boys and girls behave when they start getting cross" and role play with DS talking to an adult or walking away to play with someone else?

thats not for little sisters benefit btw but his to help him stop copying her behavious!

Agree, I wouldn't punish him but I think at 4.3 he is old enough to take on board a well-timed 'chat' about how upset it makes his friends when he pushes them. At this age it is often simply a defence mechanism when someone does something they don't like and they don't know how to deal with it. An older child can say 'That's not fair, I'm telling the teacher' etc.

Your sticker book sounds like a good route for your ds. Don't punish yourself either (here- have a sticker! )

Star charts work wonders for behaviour. One star a day for "being polite and reasonable" and one for "not hitting anyone all day" will help a lot.

But Ben Ten rewards? I know I will be flamed for this but...

The kids I see at nursery and school who have the problems with hitting/violence, are the ones whose schoolbags are Ben Ten, Transformers, Spiderman et-al.

1: TV shows for reception or older kids almost always promote violence.

2: The energy they would be using up playing outside or using mentally with puzzles/books is not expelled when they are sitting dumbly transfixed by the idiot box, turning their brains to cheese. They get fidgety and frustrated and end up hitting each other.

Honestly, if you want a violent kid, let them watch TV.

Flame away, CBBEES lovers.

I am afraid I have a different opinion to previous posters.

As children most of us grew up in the knowledge that if we got told off by our teacher, and our parents were informed, we would be in even more trouble.

Has that all been abolished now?

The message it sends to the child when they know a parent has been informed of their bad behaviour, and the parent does nothing, is that the parent condones that behaviour. In my view.

My dd also 4 has been going through a similar phase recently, although she was hitting me not anyone at pre-school.
We had her at the doctor recently for something else but mentioned her behavour change and the doctor said its quite common at this age, as they get anxious about starting school.
We now get her to breathe in through her nose and out through mouth to calm down when she starts beginning to lose her temper. This does calm her down and stops her getting to the hitting stage. We also get her to practise it and she knows to do this 'if she feels funny'.
We also have a rule where any hitting in the day means immediate time out on the naughty step and an early bed time (just by 20 minutes or so). I generally agree with not punnishing again for anything which happened at pre-school, but this wouldnt include violence. I would enforce the early bedtime if she had hit at pre-school. At 4, she knows that hitting is naughty and is old enough to understand the consequence is early bedtime. We also give her treats if she has been good (eg she gets taken out for ice cream or something).

Squeakytoy - I wasn't suggesting that the OP did nothing - and I don't think others are either. My point is that at that age, punishment needs to be immediate - if you do it later, the child may well not remember what they are being punished for, so it will not have the desired effect.

I did say that the OP should reinforce good behaviour by rewarding it, and should back the teachers at preschool by telling him she's disappointed in his behaviour if he does hit other children, and by reinforcing the good messages about sharing nicely, not hitting etc.

Is he bored?

Last few months of pre school for my DD were interesting as she and a few of her friends had 'outgrown' it. Too big fish in too small a pond.There was a lot of falling out amonst themselves rather than physical violence but I had to speak to staff several times in those last few months.

thanks for your replies.

I was bought up with the notion that if you misbehave at school, there is hell to pay (groundings etc not violence) when you got home. My dad was in the RAF so if we went to the headteacher for misbehaving, she informed dads Sgt and he was pulled in to the office ...... never a good idea! It is hard to tally that with also knowing that at his age he needs quick discipline rather than delaying things till later. DH is all for sending him to his room for any/every misbehaviour and thinks I am too soft.

At home if he hits he goes on time out and when he returns he says sorry and is made aware that hurting someone is not acceptable. For most minor things I distract or count to 3. Some things are two strikes and out and others are natural consequences, e.g spilling juice on purpose he has to clean it up etc.

The trip yesterday was planned with DS if he behaved well ... which he didn't. I have told him again today ... bad behaviour = no park after school.

I sat with the teacher and spoke to him (again!) and told him the teacher will be putting him on time out every time he hurts someone.

He does thinks like crafts, baking cakes, playing with toys etc rather than watch tv, (he watches for a short while in the morning then again before bed.) but you are right about running off some energy. He was outside playing with his two friends and dd for 3 hours after school yesterday and they all played really well together. We walked to school today (25mins one way). I hope the better weather will help him run off steam.

I know we haven't been on the ball in recent months and are reaping what we sowed to some extent but I am also relieved that it is a phase.

He does say school is boring but I don't know if he is "bored" or just repeating the phrase (and tone) of my friends 6yo who says it all the time. Right now everything is boring, silly, a waste of time (I only said that once when trying to clean a cooker)

I wish I could give short replies

"Has that all been abolished now?" no but he's 4 FOUR!

Of course if they are 9+ (to pick a random age) and they do something bad enough you can reinforce it if you like though personally I think for the vast majority of misdemeanors one punishment is more than adequate and surely most parens are able to get through to their child that they don;t condonesuch behaviour or maybe to have a minor punishment at home. The punishment should be in proportion to the crime not an ongoing all day long marathon.

But to get back to the point he's 4 4 4 only 4! AT 4 and even now at 5 my DS has a limited attnetion span and certainly wouldnt associate punishment at 3/4/5 o clock with something he did at 10am.

I have had experience of a similar problem and really didn't need to come down like a ton of bricks. The problem sorted within a week or so maximum and as the teacher said to me "th ekey is communication between us (iepare and teacher" DS was well aware of the teacher telling me what he'd done and was well aware that I was unhappy with it. He didn;t for a second thought I condoned it - why would he think that

School suggested to us a star chart (which we didn;t have to resort to) with a star for each morning that he behaves and one for the afetrnoon and if he gets 9 or 10 (you choose in advance) then they get special time at the end of the week.

I would do what the OP is doing. I think at 4 they are old enough to understand that if they did something at school that was naughty, they are going to hear about it at home as well. Nothing major, but if I picked up my child and heard they had hit someone then I certainly wouldn't be letting them have any treats that afternoon. And we would have a serious conversation about it. The child then understands that behaviour at school will be discussed with the parent and that school and home have consistent rules.

The OP also has a reward chart focussing on good behaviour which is great.

One thing I've thought about asking teachers is to try and tell me some good things that my kids do when we have a bad behaviour phase. Then the child understands that good behaviour at school gets you praise at home too.

so OP i f he hits when with you during the day and gets time out. Does he then get punished again by his Dad when he gets home?

Sorry but I really don;t understand punishing a4 yr old twice often quite long distances apart. There is a huge gap between "condoning" the behaviour ( yes we have had stern talks about bad behaviour when necessary) and punishing someone twice for the same "crime". HOw on earth is it fair (to anyone not just a child) to punished pretty publically in school/nursery in front of your friends and then be punished again despite doing nothing additional wrong in between. OK when a child might be older and their behaviour is problmeatic but surely at 4 one pinishment is sufficient.

I don;t understand why the disappointment of your parens is not a sufficient punishment for a child that young. DS is generally mortified that I am told when he misbehaves.

I guess people have very different ideas.

All I can say is I have experienced this kind of frustrated lashing out by DS at a similar age and it didn;t need me to give additional punishment to sort it out. And DS certianly didn;t need any lessons in understanding that I didn;t approve of his behaviour and that I was 100% in agreement with his teacher. He knew that without any doubt.

This parenting lark is hard

My head knows double punishment is harsh. It is just so much part of my childhood that it is automatic pilot to say/do it and I needed some other people to push me in a more reasonable direction. It will aslo involve having a conversation with dh who has been firm on time out for violence/misbehaviour at school.

II have spoken to ds with the teacher, at home and everywhere else over the last few weeks about walking away, talking to teachers etc but it is still happening. Yesterday was a good day, he came out of class saying "I have been good at school so I can go to the park" (the teacher confirmed this)and I told him how well he had done and we played at the park and had fun.

I am still struggling with the notion of continuing with planned treats after school on "bad" days though.

The situation isn't helped by the teacher saying she doesn't tell me of every incident, only when the situation gets too bad ???? I could be giving him stickers/ treats on days he has hit etc without realising.

Perhaps the answer is not to tell him about planned treats, Ihave - then if he is good, he gets a reward that he wasn't expecting, and if he is not good, you go straight home, and don't find yourself in the position of giving him the planned treat after he has misbehaved at school.

I hope that makes sense.

how is going to the park a treat? Isn't that just normal? I wouldn;t stop a child running around in a park but perhaps you have a bigger garden than me. Surely treats are comics, choclate, ice cream etc not exercise.

Teacher should be a reasonable judge of what it normal behaviour for a 4 year old and what needs to be brought to the attention of a pare. A bit of bit of ushing and shoving and grumpiness is par for teh course surely at bursery at times. Bashing people over the head is not.

Stickers for good behaviour will only work if you engage the teacher with it, teacher should be in a position to tell you if he deserves one. Get her to tell you within earshot of DS if he has been good enough to deserve one and as long as she is clear in her own mind what they accept as "normal" behaviour" and what is not then it should be fine.

Also although you have talked repeatedly about school - he isn;t in school he;s in nursery, he is only 4. Childrens impulse control starts to develop around 2/3 and is not well formed at 4/5 and is even still developing in their teens. So he isn;t going to get it after one or two events it will take a few weeks but you should see an improvement reasonably quickly if you continue to praise him when he doesn't hit. You also need to help him develop his emotional vocabulary - many children go through a lashing out phase due to frustration and they don't have the emotional intelligence to deal with it any other way so the occassional talk to him about why he did it and how he felt and suggesting words for him to be able to communicate how he felt "were you feeling cross, what were you feeling cross about" and suggesting alternative way s to deal with it "when you start to feel cross again you should go and talk to Mrs X and tell her". But all of this requires a consistent approach with the nursery teacher.

Sorry to bang on about it but I've had this exact problme and my child went from two timeouts in one day to taking the class toy home for the weekend as the best behaved child in the space of 4 weeks. Isn;t all about punishment, its about helping your child learn a different way to behave.

I'llshut up now

Kewcumber - I was a lazy mummy who didn't take her children to the park after school every day - or indeed that many days at all - and the park was right next to the school.

The advice in your post is extremely good - even though you have pointed up my shortcomings as a mum. [win]

oh don;t get me wrong I am not a park every day kinda mum either! Just pointing out that going to the park shouldnt be viewed as a treat but a necessity for a 4 yr old boy (even if said necessaity wasonly weekely). Actually for my sanity we were out at parks quite a lot at one phase but that was for my benefit at the time not his

Thaks again.

We have had so little opportunity for going to the park or doing "stuff" recently that going to the park would have been a treat. You are right though. Running around the field with a ball or playing in the park should be a regular activity rather than playing in the garden or doing indoor activities.

We walked to school again today and his behaviour was lovely the whole time. I need to get him, (and DD) out more runing and playing.

I am praising him when he shows kindness, patience with dd rather than shouting/hitting out and I will work more on expressing himself. I hate feeling like "crap mum" at school and would hate for him to be "that bully" who stops being invited to parties.

I haven't mentioned his dislike ??? of Nursery to the teacher yet but I will bring it up today when I collect him.

I will stop putting him on time out after school and see how it goes. I think because he seems so much bigger that DD, I treat his behaviour as if he is more mature than he really is.

I think when they are quite big for their age (or big comapred to a sibling) that itsmuch harder to remember that impulse control is still a work in progress. You have a lot on your plate, keep persisting and I'm sure it will pay dividends (in fact think of the fact that punishing him again doesn;t seem to be working so no harm in persisting with an alternative approach).

Lots of childrne go through this kind of phase so I think it is unlikely that he will become the class bully - particularly as you are concerned enough to try differnet thigns that you might not have before.

And I do feel your pain DS had one particularly bad day where he bashed someone over th e head with a (plastic) drill tehn did it again in the afetrnoon

That story actually made me laugh Kewcumber. Kids