To think the atheists on MN are a bunch of miserable whingers

[GothAnneGeddes]

Every bloody week it's a new thread whining on about how terrible it is that there is religion in the world.

A prominent feature of such threads is the intolerance and stupidity of religious folk, yet threads by believers insulting atheists are very rare.

Besides, aren't you all meant to be so happy to be freed from the shackles of religion, that you're too busy having fun to moan?

To me, it's not what is said, it's how it's said.

Some posters use a provocative/offensive style. This would be either deliberate, or an extreme lack of aware of impact. Either way a shame and an end of tolerance/reasonableness.

I think it's important to learn about religion too, in a historical sense. I think many religious people use the notion of 'respect' to shut down any debate or questioning about their beliefs. Atheists who aren't happy to go along with this are 'whingers'.

Meditrina - I suspect you would find anything, other than me going along with what you believe and saying a 'respect' it, offensive and intolerant.

'I' not 'a', sorry.

Tortoise I like your posts.

I'm a delighted atheist and in defence of the grumpy ones, it is simply not the case that they are pootling along in a bubble of mutual respect and tolerance, stopping only to lash out once in a while.

There are a lot of assumptions made about atheism which are simply wrong, and as for the church school thing, it's clear that never the twain shall meet as there's such a gulf between the two viewpoints. So a thread starts about it, and usually very quickly descends into reasonably polite sniping on both sides, and then someone breaks out the phrase 'imaginary friends' and does themselves no favours.

I have worked a lot with religious people from all over the world and never found them as uneducated about atheism and prejudiced against and slyly snarky about it as some of the things I have read from the mildly religious here on MN!

So I would say that both sides could do with working on their attitudes (if that's what they want) (but they don't because secretly they enjoy it).

Janet: interesting post.

I am genuinely interested: why you think I'd find all posts of differing views offensive?

JanetPlanet "Why are you offended that I don't respect the fact you have an imaginary friend that makes you feel better when bad things happen? Why should I respect people who think a magic man made the world and everything in it?"

Because you set out to be deliberately offensive? The use of the phrases "imaginary friend" and "magic man" are indicative of your desire to hurt and belittle anyone who does not think as you do. I am not offended, because the views of anyone who deliberately sets out to offend are meaningless to me. (Thankfully, I do not understand such a mind-set, irrespective of belief or non-belief.) Others will be though, which is

Charming

I am an atheist but rarely join in with those threads - just hold no interest for me.

So I am not a miserable whinger but I will put my hand up for apathetic .

One reason that atheists attack religion is that they do perceive the benign force that many practitioners do. I fully accept that for the majority of people here, their religion is a force for good in their lives and does others no harm, but that does not mean that it is an accurate generalisation of organised religion.

Religion is seen by many as being responsible for a great deal of injustice and cruelty in the world. Granted, much of this would probably take place without a religious banner to hide behind, but religion gives many extremist stances a degree of moral rectitude and righteousness that they would otherwise lack.

I am not sure that organised religion has, overall, been a force for good in the world and, as I regard myself as a moral person, I believe that I therefore have an obligation to question it.

I think the main reason that 'imaginary friend' has become overused is that it quite accurately pokes a big pin into the big balloon of special privilege that organised religion demands.
I don't like it but I do think that some of you take it deliberately personally.

The best advice I ever got about this sort of wearying arguing was from a friend who is religious for social reasons (husband is/church is nice/church school chooser): "The thing is that certain people absolutely LOVE arguing it because it's a challenge to their faith and they love that feeling of martyrdom. So they will keep it going because it makes them feel better. They need it."

I have to say that pretty much cured me of trying to get my point across

"Atheists spend much more time worrying about religious folk then the religious ever spend worry about the them."

Which would explain why there are always athiests ringing my doorbell early on Saturday mornings trying to get me to convert, or why I have to run the gauntlet of athiests when going to the tube in the morning or why the athiests are always preaching the evils of religion in the street round the corner from work or why the athiests pamphlets are always being pushed through my front door....

I don't imagine that the religious people on this thread would treat believers of unicorns or goblins with the respect that they require from others.

Just because you believe something, doesn't mean that others should respect you for it. As Prunnhilda said above, organised religions seems to expect a special privilege in this respect.
To an atheist, belief in deities and other such superstitions cannot be respected, as it is ridiculous. Yes, we can respect the traditions etc, but not the belief itself. As soon as religious people stop demanding unearned respect, you will fine non-religious people are more tolerant of your ways.

"Atheists spend much more time worrying about religious folk then the religious ever spend worry about the them."

-Absolute bollocks.

I have religious people come knocking on my door to ram Jesus down my throat at least once a week. Pamphlets put through the door as well. No Atheist has ever canvassed the area.

Prunnhilda you hit so many nails on the head.

Oh bugger I see Slug beat me to it. :)

Well done.

loopyLoops says it all for me. I respect your right to believe your beliefs, and to practice your religion in private. I don't respect your beliefs, or believe that it should affect my life.
Religion should be a private matter for the individual alone. Therefore no state sponsered faith schools, or RE or religious assemblies. There should be no religious influence on policy making, and public employees should do the job they are paid to do irrespective of religious beliefs. Anyone that does have religious beliefs should find something that suits them, not expect others to adapt to their own beliefs.

gothannegeddes, do you want to link to a couple of examples of all this whining that's been going on? It's all about the evidence, dontcha know

Off the top of my head, most atheist-complaining-threads are about having religion shoved down their children's throats, mainly by a school, but there was that shocker of a granny yesterday...

YABU.

I am an atheist. I detest religion. I respect that others believe in it, although I cannot possibly get my head around how they do.

As long as they don't preach about it to me, then each to their own.

Because you set out to be deliberately offensive? The use of the phrases "imaginary friend" and "magic man" are indicative of your desire to hurt and belittle anyone who does not think as you do. I am not offended, because the views of anyone who deliberately sets out to offend are meaningless to me. (Thankfully, I do not understand such a mind-set, irrespective of belief or non-belief.) Others will be though, which is

I think you need a good dash of Dawkins and his "Religious People Are Offended. So What?" argument/discussions. Google it if you're interested - I think it's enlightening.

Slug - way too simplistic an example - ( although I agree about knocking on doors - it should be illegal, for all forms of 'selling' )
It's become blatantly obviously in recent months/years that the views of certain Christians are not respected, and indeed ridiculed by society in general and the courts - Christianity is now seen as something from the dark ages, a religion that only the foolish and superstitious take any notice of. Christianity may not be 'sexy' but as a religion it's fairly progressive. I'd be interested to hear your views on other religions - namely Islam. How do you feel about it's growth in the UK?

frgr Sorry, but I'm not offended. I've read Dawkins and I think he's a complete twit and there are so many holes in his "argument" (just as many as in the religious "argument", but he and his followers are too dense and too wrapped up in their own, mutual back-slapping little world to see) that I can't possibly take him seriously.

carminaburana - it's unusual for courts to ridicule anything . Presumably you mean the instances where the courts have ruled that the laws of the land (re. discrimination etc) take precedence over religious beliefs? That seems eminently fair to me, otherwise all laws would be optional in practicality. Also, the New testament says more about obeying the laws of the land (Romans 13:1-7, Matthew 22:21) than it does about discriminating against gay people (er...nothing).

I think you'll find Muslims are subject to the same laws, so they were not designed specifically to annoy Christians as you seeem to think.

Furthermore, in the House of Lords sit a selection of unelected men, put there solely for the purpose of representing the interests of the religious in law-making. Funny how no-one ever mentions that in their everyone-picks-on-Christians complaints.

And, of course, every school must by law carry out 'mainly christian' collective worship. Marginalised my arse.

I agree that reading Dawkins is not particularly enlightening and his arguments do not always hold water.

The cases in the press in the last few months (the christian B&B not admitting gay couples and the restrictions on adoption because of attitudes to same sex relationships spring to mind) have all been highlighting a lack of tolerance amongst practitioners of religion. There is an irony in them being sighted as examples of a lack of tolerance towards those of a religious frame of mind.

Carminburina, I may be an athiest, but I also have a degree in Religious Studies, so I'm not exactly ignorant in the matters of religious theory and practise. (I majored in Islamic studeis by the way)

It might have been a flippant answer, but the claim that athiests spend more time worrying about the religious than the other way around simply isn't true based on the evidence. I've yet to be doorstepped by the Secular Society.

As an athiest I am discriminated against in terms of schooling. The 6 schools closest to us were barred to us because we refused to sign a form that said we broadly agreed with their creed (because we don't) As a teacher I can be legally discriminated against if I applied to teach at one of the religious (paid for by my taxes) schools. The House of Lords, as well as being disproportianately male, also has, by default, bishops (though no imams or rabbis I note) who are there solely to ensure that Christianity has an undue influence over the laws of this land.

I'm not afraid of Christianity, or Islam as you seem to suggest I should be, but I am always amused at the martyr complex and metaphorical stamping of feet that happens when those who believe they should have privilidges simply because of their faith have their assumptions ever so gently pricked by the non believers.