To want us to butt out of Libya's business

[bupcakesandcunting]

I know there are reasons for why we probably can't or for why were are obliged to "help" but I have a bad feeling about this. I feel like we're poking at a hornet's nest with this one and we're going to get stung.

AIBU to wish that we could just keep out of this? Can any clever MNers with more knowledge talk about why we are obliged to help/what the consequences will be if we don't stop with the no-fly zone? I read that the Arab Leaague are a bit at us already and I don't think we should be annoying them, really. The whole thing worries me quite a bit :(

As I said, I knew you would think I am thick. However, I do actually live in the Middle East and work and live among pretty much only Arabic people. Their opinion counts too.

No-one is saying you are thick, Jasmine. They are just disagreeing with you.

I think you sound very informed Jasminetom, especially as you are in Qatar, and clearly talk to your neighbours and colleagues about their opinions on what's happening in Libya.

But did you say if there was a demonstration in the UK against our government taking part in UN military action to save lives in Libya, you would join in?

Do you think we should leave people in other countries to their grizzly fate and let them be massacred? Why?

Jasminetom very interested to read your comments and what people in the middle East are actually thinking. Don't think your thick at all. Your views are probably the most important ordinary peoples feelings who live in the Arab world, on what is actually going on there
Personally feel very uneasy about us getting involved again. Was against Iraq being invaded totally as it was just Bushs revenge for 9 /11. And has made global terrorism worse not better. Think there are a lot of things we are in the dark about.

Two words, Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

We can't stand by and watch another genocide.

But "The Middle East" is also not a homogenous mass. Not all the countries have the same agenda or the same interests, or indeed the same political set up.

The UAE and Jordan are overtly supporting the UN resolution re Libya.

if libya's main export was broccoli, we would not be seeing this.

The west is quite happy to leave dictators to get on with it when it suits them and suddenly decide to get rid of them when it suits them.

The west is not doing this for the people of libya. I'd laugh my arse off at that suggestion if it wasn't so bloody sad.

"Two words, Yugoslavia and Rwanda."

Well the UN did intervene in Yugoslavia, albeit only in a peace keeping capacity which was not especially effective, but it did intervene.

Interesting question raised by your posts, Jasmine: how much do the views of people in neighbouring countries matter? Should they determine what action is taken? Is the surrounding region the arbiter of whether there should be intervention and if so why?

What would that have meant in Bosnia and Rwanda? What does it mean for Zimbabwe?

Besides if we are talking about Libya, that means consulting Chad, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Mali and Niger. I.e. African countries, not Qatar. Qatar is as far away as we are.

It's difficult. Probably the most poisonous legacy of the Iraq war is that it has sapped our (anyway flaky) moral authority and will to intervene when people are threatened by their governments.

That said, it seems clear that Benghazi was at imminent risk of falling without military intervention, and that its fall would have been followed by a hideous massacre.

Finally, responding to SGM's point, as one Libyan has put it, "Gaddafi came to power with the help of the west. He was armed by the west. And so the people of Libya have no choice but to get help from the west in getting rid of him," Langhi added.

"This is not war. It's the answer to our people's cry for help to finally live in peace."

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/20/anti-war-protests-libya-air-strikes

Sorry, not Mali, Sudan.

In addition to the UAE and Jordan, Qatar (as you know Jasminetom), is not only supporting the military intervention in Libya, but they have sent at least four fighter jets themselves.

Hecate: the west isn't quite happy to let dictators massacre their people when it suits them. It's that we don't always have the evidence or UN mandate to intervene militarily. Plenty of intervention goes on in other ways - sanctions, special sessions at the UNHRC, targets, and more.

Which oil producing dictatorships who massacre their own people are you referring to, exactly? (And I can think of at least one, but also good reasons why the UN haven't taken military action there yet).

"The west is quite happy to leave dictators to get on with it when it suits them and suddenly decide to get rid of them when it suits them."

Well, not really. The UN is currently aiding and abetting a home grown revolution. If we had just decided to start bombing Gadaffi out of the blue, that would be another matter.

There's no point in being immature about the importance of Libya's oil. When Libya was stable, we could suck it up. Now it's not, it makes sense to facilitate a conclusion.

the west does whatever it has to, to get the oil. It is motivated, imvho, by access to natural resources and is not, ever, overwhelmed by compassion and on a Save The People mission.

I suppose you all just have a higher opinion of western governments than I do.

I think they'd not piss on someone who was on fire if there wasn't a direct benefit to them.

For what it's worth, the only friends the Libyan regime have are in Cuba and Venezuala. None in the region.

Times have changed and no country can exist as an island anymore. We all benefit massively from globalisation, and so we must be responsible in protecting fellow human beings when we can. We must bear the cost of our being part of a UN military intervention to save people's lives in Libya.

It's good to question our elected governments decisions, but some of the cynical comments here can sound a little simplistic.

"I think they'd not piss on someone who was on fire if there wasn't a direct benefit to them."

So what was the direct benefit of us going to Bosnia?

Hecate, where does your cynicism come from? Have you spent time in the field, or working for international/government organisations? (Not questioning your POV, just curious).

I think that the west can and does do much more than piss on people who are burning without direct benefit to them. I think our democratic governments, and our wonderful NGOs (the world's leading charitable organisations are mostly western) are more helpful to the world's poorest and neediest than any other block of people on this earth.

My husband is Kenyan. I hear the other side of the west's treatment of and attitude towards other countries! the conditions that 'aid' comes with. how often this promised aid never actually arrives, we'll give you this but you have to jump through hoops and do all this for us and really rip-you-off prices.

You have no idea how pissed off with kenya america and britain are atm.

and the riots at the election. who do you think was nudging that along nicely?

you should hear what i hear from my family in kenya. my husband's cousin mixes with several politicians, my husband's best friend is a top ranking army chap.

the base that the americans wanted to have in kenya. there was a really big fight there! the agreement they tried to bully kenya into signing re extraditions of americans.

No. western governments are never on missions of mercy. imo.

In bahrain the same thing is happening as in libya. where is the intervention there? No, it's a case of he's a dictator but he's OUR dictator so we'll keep him. He's become difficult so we'll get rid of him.

taliban. trained and armed by the west, because they were fighting the russians. now we are fighting them.

sadam hussain. kept in place for years and years by the west.

mubarak - 40 years of emergency rule. he was a dictator but he was OUR dictator, so it's alright.

You can't work with a dictator for years and years and then go oooh, oooh, we've just realised you're a dictator, can't have that, let's sort you out.

if there was oil in zimbabwe, we would have kicked mugabi out years ago.

etc etc etc

somalia. lawless for years and years. people dying every day.

where's the intervention there?

yemin. where's the intervention there? - the uk send "counter terrorist forces" there last year. hmmm. counter terrorist forces. sounds like supporting a dictator to me.

Hecate - Tbf, the Americans did try to intervene in Somalia were forced to beat a hasty retreat.

I agree with the rest of what you are saying.

Thank you for not slating me, I know I am not that well informed but I do know how people around me feel. Qatar is rich, it has glitzy malls and a huge business district but the Qatar people are generally decent and sensible. The emir is trying hard to raise the new generation to appreciate what they have and stand up for what they believe in. All female Qataris have to be educated to A level and the Government have a database to make sure girls don't disappear from education until they can choose. I know, I do the paperwork! At the end of the day though, I guess he is still a dictator, he is unelected although we do have a government and have had a female deputy Prime Minister. Should he be userped because he is unelected? Where do you draw the line? I think the US particularly have to be careful what battles they pick in the name of humanity.

they tried to intervene in iraq twice and tried to intervene for how many years in total? seven? ten? more?

I wonder what the difference is.

Why they tried to intervene in somalia but were forced to beat a hasty retreat and why they tried to intervene in iraq and stayed there for years and years and years...

• I'm not arguing with you btw, not being rude, it's just the whole thing makes me so mad. them, not you

and my best friend is an alien, she used to be Zimbabwean but now has no passport. Her family were killed by Mugabe. Again, I don't know enough about it to make sweeping statements but I do know that he has done things that are against humanity a la Saddam.

rwanda. 1994.

The list goes on and on and on.