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Original poster

'bf babies more intelligent' thread II

162 replies

bubbleymummy · 17/03/2011 19:55

Ok, the original thread actually said that bf babies were more intelligent not because of bm but because their mum's were more intelligent...thread was killed by obsessive spamming from one idiot MNer and I would have been happy to let it die except that I clicked on a link on another thread and then came across this article which says that bf for even 4 weeks can have "?significant? effect on a child?s development in primary and secondary school".

Thought it might be an interesting way to reopen the debate given that many posters were saying there was lack of evidence for any intellectual benefits of bf.

OP posts:
TheSecondComing · 18/03/2011 11:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hallamoo · 18/03/2011 11:32

Sorry, what is this PROOF you are offering? This as far as I can see is one or two (very sad) anecdotes and not the norm at all.

I go back to my original point that bf supporters are in the main, supportive and non-judgemental, whereas you are just throwing insults around for the sake of it, 'weird' 'nutjob' 'bonkers'.

I think I'm going to hide this thread now as it seems that some people are intent on causing offence.

AlpinePony · 18/03/2011 11:38

bubbleymummy - I'm afraid you sound close to losing the plot. You keep veering from "this thread is about bf intelligent babies" and "it's not about bf intelligence babies". Do you want to think about what you're arguing for or is it just a general argument? Confused

TSC - I am stunned regarding the poster who tried to hurt you last week. Shock

The whole lobbyists/lactivists thing just seems to get so out of hand. I remember reading on the bf/ff board about a woman who was out feeding her baby with a bottle and a bf-er sat down at the opposite side of the room and forcefully stuck her boob in her uninterested child's face whilst glaring at the FF! Grin Mental!

tulipgrower · 18/03/2011 11:48

Just a thought:
If breast milk benefits a babies brain, maybe they should try giving regular doses to people with brain injuries and brain diseases and look for improvement? Even minimal improvement could really improve quality of life.
(I don't think breast milk is magic food, but neither the brain nor breast milk are completely understood and are so complex that neither can be sythesized.)

TheSecondComing · 18/03/2011 11:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 11:52

Btp - I can blame her for dragging unpleasantness onto this thread by bringing up comments from the previous thread that have nothing to go with what we are discussing. We are talking about intelligence - not health risks - so dead babies do not come in to it. It's a completely unnecessary contribution. We are not discussing the perception of bf supporters in the wider context either.

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EmmaBemma · 18/03/2011 11:57

really... what purpose does this thread serve? There have been hundreds like it in the history of mumsnet and nothing is ever achieved by them except some people feeling pleased with themselves, other people feeling aggrieved, and others shouldering a fresh load of guilt they could do without.

Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 12:03

Tsc - if you don't want to contribute to THIS thread about THIS study about intelligence and bf then please just hide it and move on. No one is trying to score points here except you and no one is being offensive except you when you throw insults around about people being bonkers for no apparent reason.

Ap, not sure where I've said it's not about intelligence. I've said the study wasn't about IQ if that's what you mean?

Tulip, thank you for actually contributing a valid and interesting post! :) I think it would be very interesting to find out exactly what it is in bm that leads to these improvements. Seeing as even a week made a difference is it the initial collostrum that lays the foundation as such and is then backed up by the bm itself? I know that there are stem cells in bm so perhaps it could lead to some kind of regeneration of cells for people with brain injuries or even dementia? There was an interesting article yesterday about dementia and identifying which part of the brain was responsible.

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MillyR · 18/03/2011 12:05

There was an Australian study done (read about it a while ago, so have no link) where women who agreed to participate were given either donated breast milk or formula milk for their babies at random. At school age, there was a significant cognitive difference between the two groups.

That study would suggest that it is what is in the breast milk that makes the difference. It has nothing to say about the type of mother or the act of breast feeding itself.

Other studies have shown that the composition of breast milk varies widely. The fatty acids in breast milk that are important for brain function can be changed by simply altering the type of oil a mother cooks with. It would seem to me that rather than argue over formula vs. breast milk, we should look at exactly what it is in breast milk that has an impact on cognitive development, and make sure that women have the opportunity to consume appropriate foods or buy formula milk that is the best it can be. Our knowledge of both is improving all the time.

Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 12:06

Emma, it's about a recent study - it's ok if you aren't interested in discussing it. You don't have to stay if you don't want to :)

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rainbowstardrops · 18/03/2011 12:07

Oh for Heaven's sake, not this old chestnut - AGAIN?!
Before the bf do-gooders start - no I haven't read the old thread because I've literally just returned to mn today after getting totally pee'd off with the righteous idiots that tend to frequent the site - and thought I'd have a nosey in case it had changed. It hasn't.

I tried to bf my ds and it was painful, upsetting, etc, etc. A very young midwife the following day, suggested a bottle of ff. I was beside myself with thoughts of failure ( for weeks and maybe months later). Her theory was "That a happy mum, made a happy baby".

My ds - and me - never looked back. He thrived, I thrived and has from the moment he entered school, was the only pupil to immediately go up a year for his maths and at the end of junior school, is in the top two for every subject - VERY PROUD MUM ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALL factors, from the time before conception to the day children decide for themselves what they want to do with their bodies and their lives, affect them.

With my dd, I didn't even consider bf because of my past experience. She's absolutely fine!!!!!!!!!!!!

My point is, you could smoke 30 cigs a day but bf - does that make things ok and your child have a so-called better start in life? Or is it better to be a non-smoking mum who tries her hardest to do and eat the right things during her pregnancy and wants the best for her child but bf doesnt suit - for WHATEVER reason and is made to feel so guilty - as I was!?

Saying that bf is best and all the rest of it, is of no help to anyone.

Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 12:08

'It would seem to me that rather than argue over formula vs. breast milk, we should look at exactly what it is in breast milk that has an impact on cognitive development'

I agree MillyR. It would be very interesting to know.

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tulipgrower · 18/03/2011 12:11

I thought it was an interesting study, in as much as perhaps there is something in breast milk which could be useful for neurological development.

(I'm not sure why people are offended by discussing a study about breast feeding. But then I live in a country where I've never seen a 'breast is best'-type of campaign and breastfeeding support is available, but not agressive (special bf nurses, ointments, nipple shields, gel pads, elec. breast pumps, ... all paid for by the health insurance). And noone cares if you do or don't or mix.)

Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 12:12

Rainbow, you probably should have read the thread before you posted. We aren't ranting about breast is best at all. It's about a recent study. Sorry you had a hard time with bf - I think everyone agrees that better support is needed. No one is trying to beat you up about ff. If you find the thread offensive or you are sensitive to the subject then you don't have to stay.

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Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 12:13

Rainbow, you probably should have read the thread before you posted. We aren't ranting about breast is best at all. It's about a recent study. Sorry you had a hard time with bf - I think everyone agrees that better support is needed. No one is trying to beat you up about ff. If you find the thread offensive or you are sensitive to the subject then you don't have to stay.

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Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 12:13

MillyR do you have a link to that Australian study? Tia.

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MillyR · 18/03/2011 12:19

No, I don't have a link to the study because I read it a long time ago. I do have a lot of references to papers about the composition of breast milk, but they are at work and I am at home today. I will dig them out next week and can send them to you.

There has been quite a bit of work done on changes in composition as a consequence of altering maternal diet, and by changing the amount of foremilk and hindmilk babies consume.

It ultimately benefits everyone, because it can change how people look at food security in developing countries, how women in the UK look at their diet, and helps develop better quality formula milk. Formula milk seems to have improved greatly since I was fed it, and a lot of that is down to better research into exactly what is in breast milk and what impact that has on children's health.

EmmaBemma · 18/03/2011 12:19

bubbley - it's got nothing to do with what I personally find interesting or want to discuss. Surely you can see the way this thread has gone? Put it this way - it quite clearly isn't a bunch of people dispassionately discussing the results of a recent study.

MillyR · 18/03/2011 12:23

Tulipgrower, there are stems cells in breast milk.

I apologise if I am repeating stuff from the previous thread, which I haven't read.

RubyBuckleberry · 18/03/2011 12:24

TheSecondComing you started with the booby gang thing again. Can you not resist? And the tandem feeding zealots. And you mentioned relactation. Again. Which is just really really silly Confused.

I think it is something to do with the long chain fatty acids that are building blocks for the brain.

tulipgrower · 18/03/2011 12:29

I know heaps of babies which are mixed feed. (lots of different individual reasons) It would be interesting to know if they benefit to a certain percentage, or still benefit to 100%.

Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 12:33

Thanks MillyR, that would be great. It would be very interesting to see what effect variations in diet have on composition. I think it's fascinating that even women in developing countries on very limited diets are still able to produce good quality milk for their babies.

Emma, I'm not giving up yet :) there are always a few troublemakers on these threads but I'm not going to let them get to me.

Yes Ruby, I've heard that before about the long chain fatty acids.

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MillyR · 18/03/2011 12:33

It would be interesting to know if being mixed fed by the mother was more beneficial than being fed exclusively on donated milk. Part of the health benefit of breast feeding is the passing of antibodies from the mother to the baby. But babies fed donated milk are being fed antibodies from someone who isn't in close contact with the baby, so will be picking up different pathogens from the baby.

Original poster
bubbleymummy · 18/03/2011 12:36

Tulip, there are some studies that have results from partial bf and exclusive bf. It seems to have a greater impact on some things more than others - I wonder what the effect is in relation to cognitive development. It wasn't really examined in this particular study.

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MillyR · 18/03/2011 12:38

I think that for women who are in developing countries who may not have access to all the facilities needed to store and prepare formula milk properly, it is really important that they are given good support so that they can breast feed. But I also think that it is important that governments are aware of the impact of diet in breast milk variation, so that women are not denied a high quality diet with lots of long chain fatty acids on the basis that the government just thinks in terms of providing calories and doesn't make food that is of high nutritional standard available.