to wonder how the breeders of the dogs in Crufts get away with docking tails?

[AtYourCervix]

I thought docking was illegal, as well as pointles barbarism.

SO why are so many dogs shown still docked?

I'm watching too. Those are working dogs tonight and I think, or so I've been told, that there are good reasons for docking working dogs. But maybe it's became illegal recently and these dogs are older?

What do you think of the sad stories and voting for the saddest? I hate it

You are still allowed to dock but you must prove that it is necessary usually because the dog is to be used for working.
I think that show dogs are no longer allowed to be docked but if they had already been done before the legislation came in then they are still allowed to show.

Of course I could be wrong as I don't know much about showing. My springer is docked, he had to have a certificate to show it was done legally when he went to be microchipped.

But today is the gundogs - some have tails, some don't so the 'working dog' argument appears to be bollocks.

But there is a new thing isn't there that they all have to be 'fit for purpose' so they have to be capable of doing what the breed is meant to do.

I think the docking thing came in about 2008 so any older than that could still be docked

I'm sure someone wiser will come along in a mo!

Since pet passports were brought in foreign dogs compete at crufts.

It's not bollocks Cervix, every breed is different which is why some traditionally have docked tails and some don't

The docking of dogs' tails was banned in England from 6 April 2007 and in Wales from 28 March 2007 but with exemptions from the ban for certain working dogs, and for medical treatment. A total ban in Scotland took effect 30 April 2007

There is also a ban on the showing of docked dogs (all dogs docked after the commencement date of 6 April/28 March) at events to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee. However, this ban does not apply to dogs shown for the purpose of demonstrating their working ability.

The exemption for working dogs allows a dog that is likely to perform certain specified types of work to have its tail docked by a veterinary surgeon. The dog will have to be less than 5 days old and the veterinary surgeon will have to certify that he or she has seen specified evidence that the dog is likely to work in specified areas. Puppies being docked must be microchipped, either at the time of docking or when the vet considers they are old enough.

Puppies from certain working dogs may be docked if evidence is provided to the vet that it is likely to be worked in connection with law enforcement, activities of Her Majesty?s Armed Forces, emergency rescue, lawful pest control, or the lawful shooting of animals. It is accepted that in a litter, not all puppies docked will be found suitable for work.

The owner of the dog, or person representing the owner must make a signed statement that, the dam of the puppies to be docked is of a type which can be certified, the date on which the puppies were born and that it is intended that they will be used, or sold, for one of the working purposes set out in the regulations.

The vet must sign a declaration that the requirements of the regulations have been satisfied i.e. that he has been given the necessary declaration by the owner or person representing the owner and has seen the evidence required.

The vet must have a completed statement, signed and dated by the owner of the dog (or by another person whom the veterinary surgeon to whom it is presented reasonably believes to be representing the owner), made in the form set out in the regulations. The vet must see the dam of the dog and a further piece of evidence such as:

a current shotgun or firearm certificate issued to the owner of the dog, or to the agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog for work in connection with the lawful shooting of animals OR

a letter from a gamekeeper, a land occupier (or his agent), a person with shooting rights, a shoot organiser, a club official, a person representing the National Working Terrier Federation, or a person engaged in lawful pest control, stating that the breeder of the dog whose tail is to be docked is known to him and that dogs bred by that breeder have been used (as the case may be) on his land, or in his shoot, or for pest control.

My parents show and judge English Springer Spaniels. Some 20 years ago they were all docked.

Docking is not illegal, it is not encouraged and many vets won't do it but in fact docking was originally done to stop working dogs hurting their tails. It can still be justified on those grounds for certain breeds and some breders still do it themselves.

A springer spaniel wags its tail a lot while working and can get badly torn and bleeding.

This is what the Kennel Club says about the Animal Welfare Act and Docking.

Essentially any working dog may be docked but not shown. Only dogs docked before 2007 may be shown.

"Is docking illegal under the Animal Welfare Act?

The Act bans docking with an exemption for working dogs used for their traditional job of work (as defined below).
8.Under the new legislation what type of dog is defined as a working dog?
Under the new regulations a dog is officially a working dog if a vet has certified that the dog is likely to be used for work in connection with the following:
(1) Law Enforcement
(2) Activities of the armed force
(3) Emergency Rescue
(4) Lawful pest control
(5) Lawful shooting of animals.
9.If my dog is classified as being a working dog who can dock its tail and when can its tail be docked?
Only a vet can dock the tail of your puppy. Your litter must be docked within the first 5 days of their lives.
10.Do I have to prove my dog is a working dog if I wish for its tail to be docked? How can I prove this and what official paperwork will be given to me to prove my dog has been legally docked?
Your vet must certify that your dog is likely to be used in connection with the group of activities under which a dog?s tail can be docked (see above.) The sort of proof that will be required will be defined through additional regulations.
11.Can I show my dog if it has been docked?
If your dog?s tail was docked before the new legislation came into effect in April 2007 you will be able to continue to show your dog at all shows. If your working dog is docked legally after the law came into force however, you will not be able to show your dog at events where there is a paying audience, other than to demonstrate purely your dog?s working ability.
12.Is there anything else I need to do if I dock my working puppies tails?
Before the dog is 3 months old, it must be identified as a certified working dog in accordance with government regulations."

hmmm. like i said. bollocks.

Lentil - I x-posted with you.

What happens with foreign owned and bred dogs that have come from USA to Crufts?

Might many of those still be docked?

I know of some people who work and show their dogs, so they would be legally docked.
I thought docking was made illegal in the '90s, but I can't find anything, so i'm probably wrong

i'm not sure many of those 'working' dogs actually 'work' and are in danger of damaging their tails. How can they use that argument and dock a spaniel's tail but not a labrador.

As per posts above, docked working dogs may not now be shown unless they were docked before 2007.

Springers hae a very rapid tail action and typically work continuoulsy in close cover to 'spring game' for the guns hence likley to be bashing their tail against bushes and other vegetation all day.

A labrador has a slower tail action and is a retriever so will not typically work in close cover and will only run in briefly to retrieve shot game.

I just checked and it doesn't matter where the dogs had their tails legally docked post the 2007 date. None can be shown at events where the public have paid for entry in England. They still can in Scotland and N Ireland though.

My springer brought an enormous bramble branch back for me to remove from his tail this week. It hurts trying to pick it out, and he doesn't even have a full tail!

Working spaniels are used as an example because they are more likely to damage their tails. What about rotweillers? Many cases of them damaging their tails in the UK?

i find it hard to believe all those dogs are more than 4 years old.

and when did retreivers turn white?

i hate docked tails.

My sister has airedales. If you've ever watched them and seen how much their tail is an indicator of their mood you would never dock them.

My boss has two cocker spaniels and a working cocker. One of them managed to 'break' his tail running in an out of the woods when being walked. It caused him immense pain and he had to have emergency surgery to amputate.

All her dogs are pets, none are used hunting etc. This is something terrible that happened simply because of the type of dog he is. I used to say that all her dogs were going to 'take off' one day because of how much their tails wagged.

Another friend does work his dogs, 3 springers, 1 working cocker, 1 sprocker and 1 lab. All bar the lab are docked, all done under anasthetic by a vet. They are champion workers and it would be dangerous for them to have full tails.

It's not always a 'bollocks' reason for docking.

Cervix why? They probably are, it takes a long time to train a dog to that standard!

I have a friend with a weimaraner that isn't docked and she is always getting comments about it. Simply put her dog isn't working and never was intended to be a working dog. But traditionally working weimaraners are docked because they get horrible injuries otherwise

There was a study published last year which showed you would have to dock something like 1000 dogs to prevent one major tail injury in working dogs (i.e one that would require docking as an adult). It looked at the incidence of tail injury since the docking ban, and the majority of the injuries which required docking were not in breeds which had been historically docked. I can't remember all the details, but injuries were more likely to occur in houses, and involve breeds like greyhounds and others with 'whip-like' tails.

Pups are not docked under anaesthetic.

It seems a little excessive to lop off all the tails of all of one sort of beast 'just in case' some of them may damage said appendage at some point.

I remember my mum docking the tails of our dog's puppies when I was little

We were skint, dad had left and our dog had a litter of (pedigree) Yorkies - but they had to be docked to sell them as pedigree. The breeder showed her how to do it. Still turns her stomach now, but needs must :(

I think docking is barbaric and I'm glad it's been banned.