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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Women drivers

81 replies

Booandpops · 01/03/2011 23:19

Bit pissed at the fact car insurance will now be universal - no discounts for women drivers. I know that
some women will cause accidents and some men will but it feels like women are being fleeced from every corner at the moment. Child benefits going. sure start centres. Now higher insurance. You can bet they won't brings mens costs down or put women's wages up.

OP posts:

BaggedandTagged · 02/03/2011 03:44

scared one Young drivers do tend to pay more but it's more about years of driving experience than age per se I think.

Pepsi popcorn So do you just think everyone should pay the same car insurance then? i.e. car insurance should be a flat percentage of the value of the car? That's what they do in Dubai fwiw.

SurreyDad · 02/03/2011 07:52

HHLimbo - it isn't illegal to discriminate against age, but it is to discriminate against sex.

Also, perhaps women should be allowed to be disriminated against in the workplace due to the fact they are more likely to have to take time off to have babies / look after children?

GiddyPickle · 02/03/2011 08:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 02/03/2011 08:12

Agree it is about statistics.

If you are not allowed to offer a premium based on the statistical likelihood of X person having an accident, then all premiums will be at the highest possible rate.

It makes me laugh.

Does anybody actually think that this is going to benefit anyone apart from the insurance companies?

They will not be reducing premiums for men, they will increase them for women.

So how has this helped anyone?

ccpccp · 02/03/2011 08:54

It doesnt matter if its about statistics, if the end result is sexism.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 02/03/2011 09:13

Is it sexist though, to say that statistics prove that X group is more likely to have accidents than Y group, so X group should pay more?

Now what will happen is that all premiums will rise to the highest one, because insurers sure as hell won't say oh, we can't give discounts to certain groups, let's lower all prices to those we currently charge a higher rate to!

I would imagine the insurance companies are secretly quite happy about this.

"sorry, madam, it really isn't our fault. The european court of human rights has determined that we are not allowed to give you a discount. You need to pay more now. Thanks v much."

LindyHemming · 02/03/2011 09:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VivienScott · 02/03/2011 09:26

I used to work in insurance, it's not discrimination, male drivers cost more than women to insure, it's that simple. It's no more discrimination than your house insurance being more expensive if you live in a high crime area than a low crime area. Or younger drivers being charged more than older drivers. Insurance premiums are actually worked out using actuarial formulas based on the loss history of various sectors of society, adresses etc. It is ridiculous to remove part of that from the insurance industry because if you follow the logic applied here through we should all pay the same premium regardless of where we live, how long we've been driving etc which is unfair.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 02/03/2011 09:31

I have heard people say that there should be individual assessments.

Apart from the huge cost of that, how would it go exactly.

"well Tim. You look like an irresponsible boy racer, so I'm afraid we're going to charge you more."

"Hello there Mary. I see you like a drink. Clearly you're an old soak who's probably going to drive drunk"

"Good to see you Martin. You look like a rather boring old chap with no life, can't imagine you using your car much. Got some good news for you..."

Yes. That's so much less offensive, isn't it?

Bogeyface · 02/03/2011 09:34

My insurance fell by a not insignificant amount when I got married. The guy from the Ins Co said it was because married people are seen as a safer bet than single people.

MrsWembley · 02/03/2011 09:40

My DP said last night that he could see it ending with actuaries being sacked!

I really can't understand how people don't get that it's about statistics. How ffs do people think insurance premiums are worked out. As Hecate has just said, try doing it on an individual basis and see just how expensive it can get!!!

I used to work in the licensed trade. My insurance was up because of this. No-one said, do you get on with your customers, are they unlikely to damage your car, is their a private car-park at your place of work so that you can hide it from potential trouble? They just said, more risk in your occupation, therefore higher premiums.

You can't hide from statistics (and I say this as an English teacher! Never thought I'd be standing up for Maths. )

ccpccp · 02/03/2011 09:43

"Is it sexist though, to say that statistics prove that X group is more likely to have accidents than Y group, so X group should pay more?" - HecateQueenOfWitches

Yes its sexist, because the end result is men paying 3k and women paying 750, for the same driving experience and background.

Is it sexist to say that statistically women are more likely to leave the workplace to bring up children than men, so should be rewarded less money for doing the same job in case they want to have kids?

You cant have it both ways.

GooseyLoosey · 02/03/2011 09:46

The issue is that the provision in the relevant Directive which allows sex based actuarial factors to be used where statistically justified was seen as contravening the overall principle of equal treatment in European Law. No other type of discrimination was permitted by the Directive - so for example you could not use race as a factor in calculating health insurance premiums even if you could should than one racial group was more likley to seek medical treatment than another.

To be honest, car insurance is the most visible but the least important aspect of the decision. It will have a much greater impact on the cost of annuities (which are cheaper for men as they have a lower life expectancy).

HecateQueenOfWitches · 02/03/2011 09:52

"Yes its sexist, because the end result is men paying 3k and women paying 750, for the same driving experience and background."

But that's not what they are paying more for.

They are paying more because they are, as a group, more likely to make a claim or to have a claim made against them. They are not paying more for the same driving experience and background, they are paying more for a statistically demonstrable difference in driving style that results in a higher number of accidents and therefore claims.

LindyHemming · 02/03/2011 09:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 02/03/2011 09:57

Yes. Women are now being financially penalised for the driving styles of men.

I think that is far more sexist! Once again, woman are shafted because of the behaviour of men.

ccpccp · 02/03/2011 09:58

So you agree that men should earn more than women and stand a better chance of getting the job because they dont take time off to bring up kids HecateQueenOfWitches?

MrsWembley · 02/03/2011 09:59

It's people not understanding the difference between sexism and reality. The argument that women should be paid less because they are more likely to leave a career to have children holds no water because whilst they are doing the job, they are doing the same job that a man would do! Movement between companies due to pay, conditions, etc. should also be looked at when deciding a salary otherwise!!!

How many times...statistics statistics statistics

MrsWembley · 02/03/2011 10:01

Bugger

statistics statistics statistics

(It's getting so that the word is losing all meaning to me...)

ccpccp · 02/03/2011 10:01

Fair enough MrsWembley.

Police should stop and search muslims more than other races because they are statistically massively more likely to be wearing exploding underpants.

Are you OK with that one?

StayingDavidTennantsGirl · 02/03/2011 10:01

But that ends up with my 17-year old ds being tarred with the same brush as the idiot boy racers - he hasn't passed his test yet (partly because we won't be able to insure the car for him once he has passed, but can afford to insure him as a learner), but is showing himself to be a sensible driver with a mature attitude to road safety.

Knowing him as I do, I have every confidence that he will not become a danger behind the wheel as soon as he doesn't have an adult sitting next to him. He is serious to the point of pomposity about careful driving, not speeding, road safety etc, and he has the strength of character not to let others goad him into driving recklessly.

So why should he have to pay so much for his insurance that he is unlikely to be able to afford to drive a car of his own until he is 25?

I'd like to see every driving test from now on come with a grade - the higher the grade you get, the lower your insurance will be. Passing the advanced driving test could lower it further. Then anything like accidents, points on your licence, driving convictions etc can be used to adjust your premiums.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 02/03/2011 10:04

"So you agree that men should earn more than women and stand a better chance of getting the job because they dont take time off to bring up kids HecateQueenOfWitches?"

haha.

No. I don't.

I think that there is no genuine comparison between the two.

Two people should get paid the same for the job that they are actually doing. Whether you choose to later leave the company, or take time off or whatever, does not change the work that you have done up to that point.

I really don't, truly don't, see how you are making the leap from more or less risky driving styles to pay for the job you are doing.

Bogeyface · 02/03/2011 10:06

As usual there is always one who refuses to see the point!

It isnt sexist to base a risk on the known factors.

It is a known factor that men as a group are more likely to have speeding convictions and high cost accidents. It is a known factor that young drivers are more likely to have this too, young male drivers in particular. It is a known factor that you are more likely to be a victim of car crime if you live in a high car crime area. etc etc etc

Risk analysis is not sexist, not is it ageist or racist.

I have a very good friend who is a professional musician. He also teaches music, so on his insurance he declares himself as a teacher, which is true, because his premiums as a (clean living teetotal non partying) professional musician were in the thousands for a small low power car (I think he has a Vauxhall Corsa 1litre or something similar!), waaaay above the worth of the car. He knows that this is because professional musicians, sports people etc are as a group, high risk. Its just how it is.

BaggedandTagged · 02/03/2011 10:07

SDTG- but a graded test only tells the insurance company how you drive on a given day, not how you drive normally. It also ignores things like how often you drive and what sort of driving you do.

The point with young/ inexperienced drivers is really the experience factor. You become a better driver with more experience- it's not to do with being a boy racer or not.

Convictions/ points are already taken into account by insurance companies.

MrsWembley · 02/03/2011 10:11

I like the idea of a grade given by the examiner . How will insurance companies use this? I think the advanced test already does lower the price.

Again, if it was possible for actuaries to individualise more then the premiums would go up due to the extra work involved.

ccpccp We're talking about statistics that involve money. I don't know how the police use stats. I would guess (hope) that they probably use them wisely and not to inflame delicate situations, although I remember how it was very difficult for a time to be Irish and living in GB.

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