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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be thinking "what a waste of court time" What would you do?

57 replies

fit2drop · 28/02/2011 13:38

About 5 months ago my DD was looking after her friends child because her friend had been rushed into hospital after being found in a diabetic coma. (actually not sure she was in a coma as I dont understand about diabetes too much but she was desperately ill for a while )Anyway DD stayed with the child who is 2 yrs old as there was no family available to babysit and the child Knows DD and is happy to be with her, though she was upset and crying for her mum.. . Whilst she was tidying her friends flat and collecting some clothes etc for the child a TV licence fella knocks on the door asking questions.
DD said it wasn't her house, he said , you have the TV on, dd said yes, the little girl was watching a child's programme.
The guy asks if the house owner has a license . DD says she doesnt know ,
he takes DD,s name and address, (she lives directly opposite her friend)
He asked again if DD lived there she said NO I'm staying to look after the little girl.
He asked how long for , DD said she didnt know .
Fast forward 5 months.... DDs friend hands DD a letter which had gone to her friends house. It is a court summons for using a TV without a license in my DDs name.
She is being tried at court for this!!
It NOT her home
Its NOT her TV

a copy of the letter she signed (yeah I know she shouldn't have signed it but she had a stressed screaming child and just assumed that the guy had ticked the right boxes and put the right things down)

where it says do you live here , he has written in YES, when in fact my daughter had said she was only there babysitting.
My dd has never NOT had a licence since she moved from her childhood home.

Surely they cannot fine her for her friend not having a license,
How would she know her friend never had one
Do you ask every friend you have if they have a license just in case you get left in their home fr any unforseen reason?/

This is bollocks isnt it!!

Should my DD let it go the distance and see this guy in court (which it says on the papers she can ask to have him there) or should she get in touch with a solicitor which to be fair she really cannot afford.

OP posts:
Original poster
fit2drop · 28/02/2011 14:33

LisasCat

Tempting very tempting, my DD actaully said when she saw the bit that said she could ask that he attends that it would be worth the hassle just to make him explain his actions .But in reality she is a worrier and would get very anxious...
bloody wish I could do it for her, cos I am too long in the tooth to let some jobsworth pedant upset me.

OP posts:
QuintessentialShadows · 28/02/2011 14:35

I think it is going to be easier for your dd to just appear in court with her id, her rent/rental agreement / mortgage details, proof of address and just show them, while she explains what happened.

Original poster
fit2drop · 28/02/2011 14:35

Dropdeadfred

She may be ringing them today... I havent spoken to her today yet....she got the letter on Friday... nothing done over the weekend so I need to speak to her, I will tell her the info I hve got from here too...

OP posts:
zipzap · 28/02/2011 14:36

Look on the tv licensing website and see what it says, I remember reading a newspaper article a while ago about somebody who was being done for the same sort of thing (was a baby sitter/cleaner/visitor to the house), house owners were out and even though she said that she wasn't living there she was still the person prosecuted as it was something silly like the crime is watching an unlicensed tv rather than not having a tv license (otherwise people that don't have a tv or license would be prosecuted).

does your dd have a copy of the form she signed - could she say that the person ticked the box after she signed it? or say that when she looked at it, it wasn't obvious that she was ticking to say that she lived there...

think it is also a story that is worth taking to your local papers if she doesn't mind being in them - they usually love that sort of 'legal system gone mad' sort of story!

Dropdeadfred · 28/02/2011 14:37

fit2drop i hope they can just drop it over the phone if she hasall her licence info to hand...
i agree it is a terrible waste of court time and horribleth your dd has had this happen after doing a good deed for a friend

ashamedandconfused · 28/02/2011 14:49

"I think he asked my DD if she lived there and she said she was looking after the child because mum was in hospital".

I can see how that looks like she was a temporary resident, not just a visitor,TBH, but agree it is ridiculous

or do you think that they think your DD was the friend, lying, to get out of it?

I would imagine the friend would have to pay not your DD but it could spoil the friendship

go to CAB

Capreece · 28/02/2011 14:49

I would recommend that she do everything in her power to resolve this before it gets to court, otherwise they might still fine her (or something) for not doing everything in her power before it got that far. Make sure she makes a note of every contact she has with TV Licensing authority etc. Good luck

ratspeaker · 28/02/2011 14:50

From the tv licence website

*Would you prosecute a person at an address that uses TV receiving equipment without a valid TV Licence, if that person doesn?t live there?

TV Licensing?s activities are carried out in accordance with specific policies and guidelines, which set out the criteria for prosecuting evaders. One of these criteria is that a person who is charged with a TV licensing offence must be an adult who resides at the address, or is the landlord or person responsible for licensing a television receiver at the premises. For example, a genuine visitor or babysitter at the premises will not be prosecuted.

So if your daughter can show she lives elsewhere she should be exempt

ashamedandconfused · 28/02/2011 14:50

I also agree about going to the local papers

Original poster
fit2drop · 28/02/2011 14:58

ratspeaker

thank you, will def pass that snippet on to her , that is very reassuring. Smile

ashamedandconfused

Im not sure if they think she is lying and yes I can see that her answer could have been ambiguous to his question , but she definately did tell him she didnt live there.
she didnt read what she was signing as she just wanted to get back to the child who was screaming/crying ....I am sure we have all at some time just wanted to shut the door on a visitor because we need to get back to the kids/cooker/ or whatever.

OP posts:
Nailitorelse · 28/02/2011 15:13

Spoken to a magistrate friend of mine.
He says:

  1. Your DD probably won't get legal aid as it is not an imprisonable offence
  2. Let it go to court and plead not guilty - the magistrates will probably laugh uncontrollably at the TV licence man, if it ever actually gets to court - they are also human after all
  3. But firstly, your DD must write to the TV authorities explaining that she was there babysitting, the man asked her questions but completed the questionnaire incorrectly himself, and then insisted that your DD signed the document in a hurry whilst she was trying to manage the crying children. Explain in the letter that it is not her home, not her children and not her TV. Explain that she has her own TV and TV licence in her own address nearby. Furthermore, write in the letter that if this goes any further, then she will plead not guilty in court and request the presence of the TV licencing man as a live witness rather than just having his statement available. That should sound the warning bells for them pretty pronto and hopefully they will go away. Hope this helps.
GretchenWiener · 28/02/2011 15:15

most of these settle at court door tbh

GiddyPickle · 28/02/2011 15:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NicknameTaken · 28/02/2011 15:21

Great advice from Nailitorelse. Just to add - makes sure she keeps a copy of that letter (send it by registered post and keep the receipt as well) so that if it does go to court, she can show that she did try to correct the information held by TV licencing.

QuintessentialShadows · 28/02/2011 15:21

Also, your dd was not watching the tv. The occupants child was watching tv. So really, they should prosecute the child. ...

popcrackle · 28/02/2011 15:23

How insane!!!

For a while I did not have a TV and I found the TV licensing people would constantly harass annoy me. They were awful. I almost wanted a TV so as not to deal with them.

GiddyPickle · 28/02/2011 15:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
fit2drop · 28/02/2011 15:55

Thank you , ALL OF YOU Grin

I am now going to print this off and show it to my DD.

Nailitorelse

That sounds great and very reasonable . Thank you for taking time out to find out for me , very very much appreciated.

Wine to all for help and advise Grin

OP posts:
mychildrenarebarmy · 28/02/2011 16:06

fit2drop - I have scan read most of this thread but these are my thoughts...
Your daughter is not the one wasting court time if it gets that far. The tv licensing people are the ones doing that.
She should definitely request that he attends.

She should go into it knowing that it will be stressful because she will obviously be concerned that it will go against her BUT keep reminding her that she is the one in the right and to just let it go would be wrong.

I am basing that on the fact that last year I was wrongly accused of using my mobile phone while I was driving. I decided that to just pay the fine/take the points for less hassle was dishonest. I contested it and was taken to magistrates court. I prepared as much as I could. I repeatedly stated in the lead up that I had not and would not do what I was accused of. I also provided evidence to back this up and had shown the officer who stopped me my phone at the time. I truly believe that the prosecution had hoped I would just back down. I defended myself. On the day of the hearing I was found not guilty and there was more than a degree of disbelief in court that it had been taken that far.

Tell your daughter that she should keep copies of everything and also proof of posting of everything that she sends. WHEN they laugh the guy out of court (although I seriously doubt it will get that far considering she can proove she lives elsewhere) she will be able to claim costs. So she can claim for paper, envelopes, ink, stamps etc. TV licensing will be the ones who have to pay this so she isn't wasting tax payers money there either.

I would also suggest that she gets her friend to write a letter which your DD encloses with her plea form stating that she does not and has not ever live(d) at that address. She should also enclose, as others have suggested, proof of her own address, a statement of her version of events from the night the guy called (handwritten and dated), a letter from herself stating that she appreciates the court have better things to be doing but she has no choice in the matter.

The reason I would say she should ask that he attends is because as she is clearly not guilty she has nothing to lose by him being there. She will have the chance to ask him questions. With that part of my case I made lists of questions and practised them before the court date.

IF it goes to court tell her to take everything (or copies) that she has in connection with the matter (even if it has already been sent to the court). Also to have a vague plan of what she would like to say to the court in a summing up type way at the end. The more she can do to make it extremely clear that she is doing it because she is serious about not being the guilty party here the better for her. One of the things that played a big part for me (I think) is that I was very, very clear about the fact that I was not guilty and to have taken another course of action would be dishonest. I also made sure that I made clear that I understand mistakes are made and that in my case I assumed that is what had happened.

That is long, sorry! Most importantly she will be doing it for the right reasons.

Original poster
fit2drop · 02/03/2011 16:28

UPDATE AND A THANK YOU TO ALL FOR REPLIES.

DD rang the license people, spoke to a very nice man called SEAN , who was very helpful and said the case would be withdrawn.DD asked to have that in writing, he agreed. It was all very civil and sorted out quite quickly in a telphone call that lasted less thn 5 minutes.Hmm

She could have let it go to court just to make a statement of principle but as I said in a previous post DD is actually quite an anxious person and probably would have made herself ill with the worry of it. Her M/H is not worth compromising just to make a statement about the ridiculousness(is that a word?)of the actions of some pompous jobsworth TWAT!.

Thank you all once again for your input and time , much appreciated

OP posts:
scurryfunge · 02/03/2011 17:17

Great news, glad it is sorted.

NicknameTaken · 03/03/2011 11:48

Well done, a (rare) victory for common sense!

cumfy · 03/03/2011 12:53

Are the actual owners now being fined ?

I assume that it's just too easy a line:

Yes, I'm here, but I don't live here, bye

If that was a sufficient excuse no-one would be getting a fine!
I'm a bit surprised they didn't request the relevant medical records to be produced.

Original poster
fit2drop · 03/03/2011 14:52

cumfy, when DD rang they asked her lots of questions . they asked her her address, how long she had been there, what was the name she had when she first got her tv licence years previous (she had since married and name changed) also what was the address she had moved from years previous.
The records showed that my DD had always had a license for all her addresses.

Also they knew the address she was being convicted about was occupied by a Miss L. who apparently had been "done " previous.

DD had to answer an awful lot of questions and as her address is directly opposite the address she was found in it all made sense anyway....eventually Hmm and when someone with a sensible head looked at it.

Not sure why you think they would want medical records for proof of a TV license

OP posts:
scurryfunge · 03/03/2011 17:17

Medical records in terms of proving the true house occupier was in hospital maybe?