why are we letting this happen

[swallowthree]

Barclays £1.6 bn tax dodging, Boots stashing its cash in a Swiss bank account to avoid tax, Phillip Green using his wife for tax avoidance - while services for the most vulnerable are being cut and benefits squeezed. Why are we all letting this happen ?

I hadn't even realised who UKUncut were until today. From what I've seen, what a bunch of moron's with a sense of purpose built on a knowledge of quicksand.

'If Boots had to pay more in tax, they would have to raise the prices of their products to make up the difference'.

But Boots is alredy expensive..
I rarely go in there.

Wow! there's some right on capitalist crusaders on the forum tonight!

Niceguy2 that article in the Guardian was by no means inaccurate - it quoted verbatim Barclays' reply to an MP.

Actually grovel Barclays announced that last year they saw a 39% rise in profits (£989million) - unless you think this article is a complete fabrication as well.

happiestblonde while it is their money (or, their shareholders) they've often got it by receiving the largest share of government support. Forget benefits costing the taxpayer; the wealthiest 5% of businesses benefit the most from direct Government support in terms of export subsidies and use of infrastructure. We pay to help them enrich themselves - it would be nice if they saw fit to give some back.

Spenguin if Boots raised their prices then we, the customer, would go elsewhere to buy things. That's called the market. As it is Boots effectively have an unfair competitive advantage over other pharmacies and retailers because they don't have the same tax burden.

Boots charge high prices because they were bought out by private equity a few years back. Since then, they have to make enormous profits by keeping their prices high and cutting their staffing and costs to fund their loans and repay their new owners.

These people are in it solely for the money - don't expect any morality or decency from private equity. They will do anything for a profit IMO and exploiting loopholes is fair game for them.

Niceguy2 I think you probably mean morons plural, ie without the apostrophe. Oh the irony...

We're not. Dave and Oik are letting it happen because they like to look after their friends.

The Tory Manifesto could be summarised as "Fuck the poor and disabled, look after the rich".

And the LibDems "We'll spread out butt cheeks for a bit of power"

Wook, if it comes to that, in the phrase "Oh the irony" [sic], a comma is required after the "Oh". A comma is also needed after "Niceguy2".

Grammar/spelling ceasefire, please.

Otherwise, I shall suspect an attempt to distract posters' and readers' attention from the substance of this discussion.

:) OK plu, but actually the apostrophe wasn't the worst thing- it was the assertion that UK Uncut are 'violent morons'- sorry, what violence? and morons? Most of them seem to be highly educated from what I have read and seen.

I don't understand, happiestblonde how these unpaid tax bills are 'their money' and 'not the government's'. If businesses want to operate in this country, why should they be able to avoid paying tax here, or pay less than they should? Why should the law of the land not apply?

Are the profits of RBS 'their money'?

It isn't even that our laws are weak. They tax Dodd and then negotiate with HMRC as to how much they should pay. In the last few years HmRC has been letting them pay a tiny fraction of what they should. Look at the latest Vodafone settlement, even Vodafone coildn believe how little they were asked to pay.

Labour let this happen. The Conservatives at the moment are letting it continue. It's a disgrace and should be stopped IMHO. And this is PROFIT we are talking about. They would not have to raise their prices if they had to pay a larger proportion in tax.

I'd like to see some evidence that ukuncut are 'violent' ... Their recent actions have been genius. I hope that we see more of it.

Ooooh, brilliant, the argument is back on track!

YABU... This conversation often descends into silly name-calling along the lines of 'Tory bastards looking after their rich friends' but the truth is that if we want business to gravitate to and flourish in the UK - providing the extra JOBS we need so badly - then we don't tax the heck out of them at the same time. If a company or an individual is dodging tax illegally they should be investigated for fraud. If tax loopholes are being exploited and we don't like it then we need to vote in politicians that will close the loopholes.

NiceGuy said what I was going to... so... what he said.

THEY are all letting this happen. posters like nosuchthing happiestblonde chil1234 et al who all creep out of the woodwork once someone dares ask a rational question or asserts a valid pov. it's all quite depressing and is putting me off MN after only a month or so of dipping in and out.

and to snipe at people who get off their arses and actually Do something such as the UKuncut lot is pathetic. yeah, right: violoent is transforming a bank into a library for the morning? er, no, it's genius.

Chil1234, for developing business in the UK, there is an alternative of developing the small and medium-sized business sector, which, by definition, grows from a small size. Therefore, there is some sense in ensuring that taxes fall fairly on the economy, so that there is proper competition, a point MrIC mentioned.

As for why SMEs are desirable: a mix of business sizes is a mark of a flexible economy, and one which is not vulnerable, for example to big closures/bankruptcies (e.g coal mining, Woolworths, call centres whose work is/can be outsourced). Wider entrepreneurship could also lessen inequality, and strengthen the rule of law (since an economy held together with a web of contractual relationships is one which it doesn't pay any of the contracting parties to disrupt, whereas mega-companies can and do screw suppliers, pay bills late, and so on, because their suppliers and bankers can less afford to lose such big business).

Chil1234 Vodaphone, Boots, Topshop and Barclays are hardly going to leave the UK altogether in a huff about being taxed (on their profits btw)more fairly- they are competitors in the market. What is the alternative for them- pull out of the UK and let their competitors mop up?
What theskiinggardener said is so true, Labour let this happen and now it is being allowed to continue unchecked. It really is a disgrace, and it does surprise me to see people acting as apologists for these rapacious businesses and their shoddy practices when I suspect the same people would be the first to scream blue murder about benefit 'scrounging' or benefit cheats.

@georgeorwell. Why is it 'depressing' that people might have a different point of view to you on MN? It's not the Socialist Worker website... it's a place where people with a lot of varying opinions can express their ideas and have a conversation. AIBU is a forum offering a stark choice i.e. 'U' or 'not U' so you can find it limited to polarities. But if you go through life only listening to people that agree with you, it would be extremely boring and one-sided. IME MNers are more likely to be left than right wing and I (a Tory voter, no less) get howled down and derided on quite a regular basis. Still... if you can't stand the heat etc. :)

Chil1234 It isn't depressing to encounter alternative views, it's refreshing and it helps us all to sharpen up our arguments.
What is depressing is when people can see the human cost of the cuts now being made and yet dismiss them as not only inevitable, but in some way desirable.
It's also depressing to see large companies acting in a way which shows no sense of responsibility to anyone, or any god other than profit, profit, profit. And yet what is all this profit even for? Once it gets beyond a certain point, what meaning does it even have? Barclay's profits are obscene, how can anyone think that they are not?

@Wook.... Boots etc. are probably not going to leave the UK. And yes plupedantic, we need to encourage smaller companies with things like lower corporation taxes and other incentives. But we need more companies to come here & be successful in total if we're to get ourselves out of the mess we're in.... generating more jobs, more tax revenue etc. The last government was satisfied to take billions from the financial sector and use it to inflate the public sector. Far too co-dependent and - as we found - unstable. Now we have to build up other businesses alongside finance and reform public services at the same time.

As I said earlier, fraud has to be prosecuted and the worst tax loopholes closed. But 'rich bashing' for the sake of it is a bloodsport we could do without.

Who is 'rich bashing'?

chill chil was not referring to the divergence of opinion as being depressing but the almost immediate descent into offensive language used by the reactonaries on here. "violent", "morons" etc. maybe i wrongly included you in that.

however, you ARE depressingly predictable to mention Socialist Workers as is not relevant to anything. you are just trying to delegitimise by implication my opinions by relegating them to a polarised, myopic political stance. which they are not. i'm not of the SWP.

OP asked why are we letting this happen. answer the question or quit the tedious knee jerking.

even if i was of the SWP am i not allowed a voice? (not on MN seemingly). it's like me saying as you're a tory your opinions are boringly obvious so just don't bother expressing them now. (pats on head).