That I want potential doulas to be aware of a course

[pippala]

A potential doula posted recently enquiring about a doula course and costs.
I went on this three day course and I personally found it lacking.
Firstly in informative content and as a qualification to practise as a doula.
Mumsnet admin then removed my post as aparantly we are not allowed to criticize this particular course.
Another mumsnetter also commented that she also was not impressed.
I find it incredible that it is not "allowed" to voice an opinion that may save someone else wasting £350.
Doulas can practise as a doula after a three day discussion course and after only four births are classed as a recognized doula and can charge up to £800.
Compare that to the training of a midwife, 3 years and at least 40 births or the training of an antenatal educator?
Yet after only three days a doula can visit a mum to be in her own home and give antenatal education, discuss birth plans and pain relief.
Other doulas have jumped to the defence of this particular course. insisting that it is only a starting board for doulas to learn from research, books, on hand experience etc.
Then why pay £350 to line the pockets of the course leaders.
Doulas may as well set up on their own without having to debrief their own births with strangers. After all there is no regulation for doulas, Anyone can be one!!!
Prehaps if all these misguided women chose to train as midwives, who can actually be useful during a birth, we would not have the chronic shortage of midwives we have at present.
If the 1400 women who "trained" to be doulas with this company went into midwifery prehaps there wouldn't be the "need" for doulas to give "emotional" support to labouring women.
That role would go back to the midwives that spent 3 years training and would like to be less busy and have time to offer 1 to 1 attention.

YANBU in that you should have been able to give your opinions on the course...but afaik, it's not that there aren't enough midwives training, it's that not enough of the many who train are getting the jobs at the end.

um

I don't think you should be attacking doulas

"Prehaps if all these misguided women chose to train as midwives, who can actually be useful during a birth, we would not have the chronic shortage of midwives we have at present.
If the 1400 women who "trained" to be doulas with this company went into midwifery prehaps there wouldn't be the "need" for doulas to give "emotional" support to labouring women."

There is no shortage of applicants for midwifery - the courses are hugely oversubscribed. The shortage is of midwifery posts, which is down to funding, not a lack of midwives.

Doulas aren't the same as midwives at all. They're usually very clear on that...

Discussing a birth plan with a doula is more like discussing it with your mother than a MW.

Someone help a thickie please. What is a doula?

If the NHS would fund enough midwives to allow mums to have one to one support, then there would be no need for doulas.
But, as it is, there aren't enough midwifery jobs going to cover those who complete the midwifery training, let alone the thousands who apply for training and don't get a place.

So what do you do if you havent seen the same midwife twice during your pregnancy (and pretty much know this will be the case when you go into labour), or you attend an antenatal class that frankly doesnt inspire you with confidence or prepare you for birth in anyway, or you havent got any family/friends you feel able to turn to for support during birth?
I know I'm not the only one to have gone through this experience, in fact its common place in my local hospital trust as they have such a high turnover of midwives. That also corresponds to us having a high number of doulas in my area, to help support those who feel unsupported by the NHS failings.
This is all part of the reason I'm looking at doula training, as I wouldnt want to go through the same pregnancy/birth again as I did before.
And as far as I'm concerned, each course irrelevant of the cost & length will have its good and bad reviews, especially those who train more than others. I'll be going with my gut instinct, after speaking with doulas in my area, they have nothing but praise for the course I believe you are referring to, and thats even from those who did other courses!

Pippala, if you dont mind me asking, if you are as anti-doula as your post comes across, why did you train as one in the first place?

That potential Doula was me.

I appreciate you trying to help but i just wanted to update you as you asked on my previous thread, having just completed the course, like many others, I found it a great course and it really helped me. Obviously it wasn't the same for you, and that's fine too, that's your opinion, but maybe the way you came across upset people.

Don't think you can liken doulas to midwives personally, totally not the same thing but that's my tuppence worth.

Pippala,

I'm just wondering why you feel the need to continue your inaccurate, misinformed and malicious vendetta against doulas and this course in particular.

We've got the message load and clear that you have personal issues against this course. Funny though that you choose to come and make your vicious and nasty remarks on mumsnet instead of discussing them with the person who runs the course like any normal adult would.

What concerns me most about your posts is that while they might be your opinions, they are inaccurate and portray a level of ignorance around what doulas do and do not do, and the differences between doulas and midwives that is absolutely astounding.

I would say to anyone reading your posts to please go to other people for the truth.

You certainly have the right to your opinions.

What you do not have the right to do is to deliberately misinform other people with lies and inaccuracies by carrying on a mean-spirited and vicious vendetta against doulas for no other apparent reason than to boost your own flagging self-esteem.

Nothing about your issue is about being reasonable or unreasonable, you're choosing to be just plain nasty.

For the record:
Doulas are not midwives; our role is entirely different.
We do not ever give advice, medical or otherwise; we do not undertake any sort of clinical task. We are there to give psychological and physical support measures that parents tell us they require.

Let me repeat that for Pippala who hasn't yet grasped this very important concept - AS PARENTS TELL US THEY REQUIRE.

Am I being fairly clear?

I would love to be a doula..however i cant afford the training and its always miles and miles from where i live. I would also love to train as a midwife but again lack of funding means no jobs!!!
I have expressed an interest in doing some volunteer work around antenatel care and birth/postnatel care but no one will take someone on without qualifications so no matter which way i try either lack of money on my behalf or funding from the goverment means i might not ever have my dream job :(

I have just finished this course with Nurturing Birth and I found it to be excellent. I didn't know what to expect at first but for me it was well worth the cost.

I have gained a lot of knowledge from this course and I feel better prepared to venture into the world of Doulaing. This isn't the end of my training, not by a long shot, its just the start. I fully intend to do other workshops to increase my knowledge and gain valuable information from experienced Doulas.

I don't think anything thinks that after 3 days they are fully fledged Doulas, maybe this was what you were expecting. I don't really understand what it is you have a problem with? Could you maybe explain why you didn't find the course rewarding? Maybe being a Doula isn't for you and thats ok but I don't think it is fair for you to slate it in the way you have.

The role of a Doula is to support the mother. We are not there to give advice and certainly not of a medical nature. We are there to make sure the mother is aware of her rights and to make sure she has all the information available to her so that she can make an informed decision. Doulas are not midwives, we offer support to mum and dad so that they can have a positive birth experience.

I hope you manage to find something you are happy doing. For me, I know this is the right path. I cannot wait to be a Doula.

Perhaps you should actually get your facts straight before you start with the random criticisms.

1. Midwifery courses are vastly oversubscribed. Many midwives are out of work. If you did not notice there is a recession and cuts being made. It is down to money and availability of jobs not willing people to train as midwives . Do you know how much it would cost to give the ideal one to one support? In fact if you do not know this I am quite concerned for your level of intellect and sanity.

1. Doulas are not midwives. They do not claim to be. They are there to provide guidance and emotional support not medical advice.

1. Many midwives do not have the time, ability or desire to provide this emotional support.

1. Doulas are private. Parents hire them and pay them privately. Nothing to do with the NHS or midwives.

1. Where were we? I keep getting distracted by your ignorance.

1. Of course that training alone does not make someone a doula. Doulas have their own experiences, many as mothers themselves. They read, they discuss, they understand. You might hire someone yes who has simply done a 3 day course and doesnt know anything but I really doubt anyone with any sense would. A good doula will meet up with prospective parents first, often for free, for the parents to ask questions, see if they feel comfortable with the support offered and so on. If at any time you feel uncomfortable, you walk away.

1. I do not understand why you have such anger towards a group of people you clearly do not understand, are not affected by and have no need to work with if you do not want to.

1. Many, many a doula picks up the emotional and physical mess the overstretched NHS have contributed to.

1. A good doula does not use her own experiences to guide you. She/he uses her knowledge, empathy, mentoring skills to guide you to make your own decisions. She does not do things for you or tell you what to do.

YANBU - this is part of the dumbing down of healthcare.

Diablo can you explain, please?

How can doula training be dumbing down healthcare when doulas are not midwives, do not claim to be and are there to provide guidance and support for the family

Thank you

.

Isn't this the third thread you've tried this on? Are you not getting a bit bored by now?

For the benefit of anyone who might be misled by this, can I add again. Doulas are not midwives, nor do we want to be. The job of a doula is to care for the mother to be (and her immediate family) in a holistic, non-medical way. Some of this work involves things midwives would do if they had time, but don't as they have pressing medical responsibilities or may not have had the chance to get to know the mother very well beforehand, some might traditionally have been the role of a female relative, but perhaps the woman has no-one local, wants someone with more knowledge and experience, or simply wants the "no-strings" element of hiring a professional.

If you are thinking of employing a doula, and find she has, as the OP suggests, not done the training, mentorship and assessment that Doula UK insist on for registration, or that they are claiming to be able to do the work of a midwife, then I would suggest you burn their number, and get someone reputable.

When I mentioned to my MW when I was expecting this time last year, that I wanted a doula for my homebirth, she rolled her eyes and said;

"They just get in our way, they don't anything other than hold your hand, complete waste of money and space, I really wouldn't bother".

As she was the one planning on delivering my ds I took her advice and didn't hire one. My labour was over and done with in 4 hours so I saved some pennies. Still the experience would've been nice.

It depends on your outlook Lady. There is a lot more besides the handholding, it's a shame that MW thought that, but it depends on the MW, the doula and the situation. Usually there is a lot of preparation, on an emotional level, that you might not understand if you hadn't seen the process.

Personally, I would have loved a doula at my homebirth, as I had a very long "latent labour" (I was contracting strongly but not dilating) and at one point was extremely upset as my MW wanted to leave me to do her rounds as I as "not in labour yet" (but contracting 3 in 10), she told me she couldn't do anything, but I just wanted someone calm and reassuring to simply be with me. For some women, and their partners, that alone is more than worth it. But like I say, most doulas can offer an awful lot more than just handholding.

In a nutshell, this is what "holding your hand" can do www.childbirth.org/articles/stats.htm a bit of positive support is pretty powerful stuff.

Yeah well I thought that and wanted one, but I didn't want to "step on" my midwife's toes tbh! (incase she was mean to me!)

I had a doula for the births of DD2 & DD3 after the horrendous cascade of interventions induction that was DD1's birth.

She made a homebirth (DD2) possible for me (in the supportive sense not the medical sense) and during the birth all I focused on was the doula and DH - though at 4 minutes from first push to baby there wasn't much to focus on .

With DD3 I planned a homebirth but after 3 WEEKS of labour when my waters went there was a lot of meconium staining so the MWs advised we transfer in. Having the doula with me helped me from completely losing it at the prospect of going to hospital (the MWs were fantastic too). Having the doula at the hospital as well really made a huge difference to the birth and DD3 was an easy birth even with the 37cm head (17 mins start to finish and with the doula's help I could slow down the pushes to avoid tearing).

If all the training she had was a 3 days course then that course was worth every minute it's weight in gold. She was amazing and I was so sad to hear she had retired from birth doula-ing to concentrate on post birth support.

I guess I really depends on the person doing the course as much as the course content - if they are in it for the money (why it's not exactly well paid!) then they probably won't do extra research and training to hone their skills like those who are doing it to improve the births of mothers (and in some ways a birth is a birth of a mother and not just the baby).