MIBU- To say ‘Stuff AV - I want PR.’ and spoil my ballot paper.

[NanaASH]

I think Nick Clegg has sold us out on this as well. The people campaigning before the election were asking for PR, scraping the Lords and having an elected second house, not the AV crap. So do I just vote for AV and hope for better later or write in ?
PR X

Elected Second House X

so spoiling my ballot paper.

I am totally anti AV and pro- PR, or, worst ways FPTP. With you on this one.

I thought I'd vote for AV, but you've made me think. I want PR too, and though normally slow changes seem more doable, I doubt there will be another significant change to how elections work in our lifetimes, so we should probably hold out for what we want. Thanks.

Alternative Vote is the worst of all possible worlds. And if you vote for AV, you will never get PR - look at House of Lords reform... never got beyond chucking out most of the hereditaries.

While if AV is rejected, those in favour of PR will carry on campaigning for change.

Tbh, I'm going to vote 'no' as a protest against Clegg. I don't want AV anyway but even if I did, I wouldn't want to reward him for betraying very clear manifesto promises within 30 seconds of getting a sniff of power. He betrayed the electorate. (And for any Lib Dems going on about their party not winning the election - the fees pledge was predicated on not winning the election, it said very clearly they would vote AGAINST any increase in fees. They did the opposite.)

Disagree, I'm afraid.

I am Pro-PR but will vote for AV. If AV fails then the parties will all say "See, the public don't want reform" and it will be another generation at least before there's another chance.

YABU for the reasons StroppyDad mentions. If you spoil your paper it will be interpreted as being anti voting reform. BTW... Clegg, like all the other coalition politicians, has had to make compromises before a government could be formed. If you don't want a situation in future where everyone's manifesto is left behind at the ballot box government policy is determined by a series of compromises behind closed doors then PR really isn't what you want either...

AV worries me because more weight could end up neing given to, say, a BNP voter than to a mainstream party.
Say, 100 votes
39 for Labour
20 for Tory
19 for RESPECT
6 LibDem
6 for NF
6 for BNP
4 for Monster Raving Looney
If all the fringe parties have a second choice for RESPECT, doesn't that end up with:

41 for RESPECT, 20 for TORY, 39 for LABOUR ?
Potentially, a terrible outcome?

Apologies for Maths/ simplicity but YSWIM

I think the same way as stroppydad.

Oh Edam, it pains me to disagree with you, because you are so brimming with good sense and intelligence ...

But have you read WhiterShadeofPale's post on Alternative Vote - Am I bothered? on the In the News topic? She sets it all out very clearly. Also, I've just been listening to George Monbiot on Question Time, and he thinks AV is a good idea. I think I'm converted, although like you, I am hugely diappointed in Nick Clegg's lack of integrity. So I agree with StroppyDad on this.

OP-How do I become a Lord scraper ?

I agree with stroppydad, AV is the best chance we have of getting nearer to PR. It may not be perfect but anything's got to be better than FPTP. If we stay with the old system it will probably never change because FPTP benefits Labour and Conservatives.

I counted vote once at a general election and the person looking at your ballot paper will be told not to count your vote and your protest will never be registered.

grumpy pants

i think the point is that you wouldn't get all the fringe party voters voting for the same second choice - who's going to vote far right first choice and far left second choice?

the point is that if you are say, far right, you can vote for an extreme right party first choice, more moderate right party second choice and more centrist second choice.

if you are far left you can do the opposite.

rather than now where everybody has to vote for one of two centrist parties first and only vote 'just in case' voting any other way 'splits the vote'.

and i don't think that voting for AV will stop any chance of further reform. i think voting against it will as essentially many will see a vote against AV is a vote for the status quo and against reform.

hello mellow. No, hadn't seen that post you are talking about, will go and have a look. And I'm quite serious about a vote for AV killing any prospect of PR for a whole generation - politicians have short attention spans and fear there's a limit on public engagement with voting methods.

Not that happy with AV but at least it gets us away from FPTP and is step on the road to true PR.

The BNP are supporting the NO2AV campaign so they can't see it as a great advantage for them.

AV is just a staging post.
Will boost LD vote by 30-35%.
Unfortunately it's the only game in town.

From here
Yes-8/11 No-Evens (ie Yes is favourite)
Expected turnout 42%

I definitely read somewhere that AV actually penalises small parties as they're likely to get less second preferences so the BNP argument isn't really valid.

Assuming that the Tories haven't completely shafted the Lib Dems into electoral oblivion by the next election they will almost certainly gain more seats in parliament and further reform will definitely be on the agenda.

In fact, with Lib Dems as kingmaker (which they probably will be regardless of whether we have AV or FPTP as we have multiple parties under a two party system so coalitions far more likely in future regardless of voting system) we're more likely to get PR as a condition of a coalition agreement. I can't see Labour or Tories bringing it in if they have a majority.

I'll vote NO.

look the OP shouldnt be posing this question on her

the posters of MN cant even decide what to have to tea, or what nappies their kids should wear

let alone anything vaguely intelligent