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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think the NHS is falling down on elderly care? Its all over the news this morning.

32 replies

GabbyLoggon · 15/02/2011 11:10

Todays NHS Ombudswoman report by Ann Abraham ....Elderly care is not always very good.

John Humphries was very annoyed on the Today prog (Radio 4) about what was going on

One example given was a man was watching his mother die in hospital. Her lips were caked and she could not reach a glass of water.

A nurse said "we are not allowed to force feed" (which was ludicrous.)

Its an important subject and we must remember that most care in the NHS is good.

"Gabby"

OP posts:
Chil1234 · 15/02/2011 11:29

YANBU (for once). The NHS has a lot of faults and not just in the area of elderly patient care. I've had the misfortune to be looked after by quite a few lazy nurses - the type that hand out sleeping pills so that they get a nice quiet night-shift, for example. It's not a question of funding or staffing levels. As Humphrys rightly pointed out.... why does anyone need 'training' to understand that a dying woman needs a drink of water?

It's an appalling state of affairs and yet another good reason why the NHS should lose its 'sacred cow' status.

CMOTdibbler · 15/02/2011 11:35

Some places are great - the hospital my grandfather and grandmother both went into which was a local community hospital looked after them amazingly well. And looked after elderly partners too (could buy lunch for a pound to eat with partner, given drinks etc).

But when I was on a DGH trauma ward last year, I saw a lady with no speech and limited movement being left with food and drinks in front of her that she couldn't eat or drink due to her tremor. I ended up feeding her myself as it was agonising watching her looking at the food.

claig · 15/02/2011 11:36

YANBU. It's a national disgrace.

Original poster
GabbyLoggon · 15/02/2011 12:01

claig It is a national disgrace. (The staffs thing went on for years)

There does really need to be a better system of reporting complaints for both patients and nursing staff.

My wife cared for elderly men in a good hospital regime for many years.

And I can go back 5 or 6 years to when the BBC secrtetly filmed a nasty care hospital.

All hell broke out; one professor was so impressed he said he was going to devote the rest of his life to investigating care of the elderly

OP posts:
BuntyPenfold · 15/02/2011 12:09

CMOT Sad

I witnessed mistreatment of a patient by staff in the same ward as my late father.
I feel ashamed now that I didn't do anything.
My father died and that was all I thought about.

NearlySpring · 15/02/2011 12:11

OP - The man watching his mother die in hospital, why did he not give her a drink of water if her lips were cracked?

Original poster
GabbyLoggon · 15/02/2011 12:16

you are nit picking in an outrageous way, Nearly spring.

If you had listened to the interview on TODAY....you would have responded humanely
or not at all (In your case.)

Please grow up and realise that there are serious issues on Mumsnet Thanks. "Gabby"

OP posts:
Vallhala · 15/02/2011 12:32

YANBU. It's not new however - seventeen years ago at the time when my 78 year old Nan was dying of cancer she was taken, under GP's instruction and by ambulance, to a major London teaching hospital. They had no beds and she lay on a trolley in A&E for 7 hours before being sent home again. In that time there was no staff member with time to give her a drink - 76 year old Grandad went into the shops to get her some bottled water. Of the hospital staff, no-one cared, no-one bothered, no-one, bluntly, gave a fuck.

A week later she again was very, very ill and in great pain and again it was recommended that she went to A&E and waited for a bed although there were none at the time available. Luckily my family were able to afford a private room and opted for this as a result of the previous week's experience with the NHS so Nanny subsequently got the emergency care she needed. She was transferred to an NHS ward in a sister-hospital after the weekend and spent a week with NHS staff, some of whom clearly didn;t give a toss.

At the end of that week she came home for the last time and passed away a few days later. I'll never forgive Kings College Hospital for their treatment of my precious Nanny.

I suspect that a large part of the problem is that the elderly are often without the strength or ability to complain and worried and grieving families like mine are struggling too much with their pain to complain when it's all over.

NearlySpring · 15/02/2011 12:32

I wasn't nit picking - No, I didn't hear the interview on TODAY, but unfortunately if you post in AIBU you can't put restrictions on who can reply. In fact, I wrote that post as a genuine question whilst I was reading further into the news articles and composing an in depth response.

Chil1234 · 15/02/2011 12:36

@NearlySpring... it's a valid question. I got the impression that he arrived for a visit to find the mother dying of thirst. In our family, we've had bad experiences, don't have much faith in the nursing profession as a result and organise visiting rotas complete with proper food and drinks if anyone's admitted.

Jamillalliamilli · 15/02/2011 12:40

I'm disabled and have been dumped onto the geriatric wards frequently as a bed blocker. Some of the treatment meted out to the elderly is beyond belief and a great deal is to do with attitudes, not overworked staff.
I escape the worst because I?m the right side of the age barrier, but it?s heartbreaking and you?re forced to be part of the problem or suffer retribution. My experiences have lead to me now avoiding seeking medical help at all costs.

The most important thing if you have an elderly relative in hospital is to visit a lot and often, and ensure you leave reminders of that. (cards, flowers, fruit, even if the person can?t use them) Ironically it?s the patients with the least sign of being loved are the one?s who get the least care and attention.(especially from some sectors of staff who have different belief systems about why it might be)

BuntyPenfold · 15/02/2011 12:47
Sad Yes, the abuse I witnessed was absolutely not due to staffing levels.
slightlymad72 · 15/02/2011 13:00

My daughter is often in hospital, she is one of these patients that they don't know where to place so often gets a bed close to elderly people.

The last time she was on a ward, there was an elderly lady that had soiled her bed, she didn't speak, I believe she was unable to, but kept pulling her bed clothes down to show to the staff that her bedding needed chaging, 3 different nurses pulled her blanket back up over her, none of them noticed that she smelt and was heavily soiled. The 4th nurse however did, she pulled the blanket back over the patient then announced to the rest of the staff in that bay, she would not be cleaning that mess up and the woman would have to wait. The poor love had been sat in her own waste for over 30mins by this time.

There is no point complaining to the staff on the wards or to PALs, if you see anything that you deem inappropriate or abusive to any patient then you go straight to the top of the health trust, The chief Executive, you find their names on the internet. THey have a duty to reply to your letter within 28 days and investigate your concerns.

These things happen but if you do not complain then things will not change. There are some wonderful NHS staff that are doing the very best they can but sadly the crap ones are making their lives difficult and their jobs a lot lot harder.

Original poster
GabbyLoggon · 15/02/2011 13:00

Mind you, we must admit caring for dying people is a very difficult job. And the nurses who do it well are almost angels.

Fair enough spring..But I beleived the still grieving man on the radio. And if you want I suppose you can read reports of Ann Abrahams shocker on the internet.

Its not covered by the official secrets act. (wicki leaks may have it, they have everything else)

JustGettingonwithit: Yes, it will be the ones who get least visitors who get most bad
care. your comments are tragic and heartrending. Just how much of that is going on? "Gabby"

OP posts:
BuntyPenfold · 15/02/2011 13:03

I wish I had, but it is too late now.

We were also refused a drink of water in a nursing home, for a man with severe dementia, who did not understand that he had missed the tea trolley round.
He was told he would have to learn.
He was no longer capable of understanding the world, let alone learning anything. Sad

Minda · 15/02/2011 13:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
GabbyLoggon · 15/02/2011 13:19

yes, Bunty that sort of answers NearlySpring comments. Thank you for exposing those details. There is clearly a degree of very poor treatment of the elderly in the NHS.

I find it shocking and draining just reading about it. That may be because I am older than most posters here. "Gabby"

PS But still alive and kicking.

OP posts:
microserf · 15/02/2011 13:21

i watched my great aunt die after a stroke. we had not realised that the staff brought her meals and drinks and left them in front of her, and then took them away untouched. this was her problem apparently, not theirs. no IV line was put in either. she was in agony begging for a drink when we visited - trying to cry, but so dehydrated she had no tears. the nurses and nurse aides on the ward were vile.

this was about 5 years ago, and it's been a source of great regret that we didn't make a huge fuss. at the time we were worried they would treat her even worse.

Original poster
GabbyLoggon · 15/02/2011 13:23

Good advice, SlightlymAD72, go to the people at the top if you can manage it. "Gabby"

OP posts:
Original poster
GabbyLoggon · 16/02/2011 14:01

National TV did some good reports on this yesterday evening.

My left shouted "rubbish" at what one high NHS official said.

She said it was all about buildings. My wife says its mainly about different job
titles and duties being given to nurses with different ranks.

Now it is frequent for a nurse to say to a patient "That is not my job." My wife reacts against that attitude, which is modern.

It is to be hoped that all the publicity makes a difference. "Gabby"

OP posts:
JsOtherHalf · 16/02/2011 14:12

It's not just the elderly. There are any number of issues in the nhs failing to care for learning disabled adults/children.

I can speak personally of different cases, but this one stuck with me:
A young man admitted to hospital following a severe tonic clonic seizure. Staff went to collect him when they were informed he was due to be discharged the following day - he hadn't had his incontinence pad changed since being admitted, and was incredibly thirsty and hungry.
A full file of his daily needs had been brought to the hospital with his meds in the ambulance.

cory · 16/02/2011 14:12

We had a similar problem 10 years ago, microserf. FIL was deaf and blind but the nurses just dumped the food on his table and walked off; and then they told MIL he wasn't eating- of course he wasn't, he didn't know there was food there. My MIL who was elderly, a cancer sufferer herself, unable to drive and living in a distant village, was unable to stay with him all the time; her sons did their best but both live at the other end of the country so couldn't exactly pop in every meal time. Organising a rota is all very well if you have the people there to do it.

mosschops30 · 16/02/2011 14:16

I don't know of any nurses who say 'that's not my job' if they did it would soon be shaken out of them. I think this is a myth the media like pedal. As a nurse I don't think anything is beneath me, making tea, feeding(although not much of that on my unit), washing patients, changing beds.
Maybe I'm just lucky to have worked in great areas where patient care is as good as it can be with little staff and low moral.

As for the person who believes that nurses give out sleeping tablets for a quiet night shift, what a load of nonsense. If I want sedation prescribed for a patient, I have to ask a doctor, and justify my reasons for that request. If he chides not to prescribe then it's not given.

I know care isn't perfect, and I experienced poor care when my own father died, but until the nhs workers get better pay, and more staff then unfortunately it's going to fall down somewhere

Original poster
GabbyLoggon · 16/02/2011 14:34

Yes,Moss, I thought Blair baby threw money at the NHS. Did it go to the wrong places?

You mean there are no ranks of nurse who are allocated different jobs.? Are RGN and SRN still revellant titles? SENs and Auxilleries?

Are nurses "hands on" like they were 20 years ago?

For family reasons I take an interest.

cheers "Gabby"

OP posts:
mosschops30 · 16/02/2011 14:45

Gabby you do realise that your name is at the top of every post so you don't need to sign off "gabby" every time Smile

sen is now phased out and all of them in my trust have done a conversion to rgn
The only difference between myself and an auxiliary (band2 or 3) is that I can be held accountable for any acts or omissions and I can legally give drugs, we have some highly trained band 3 nurses who are allocated suitable patients.

Our unit manager will roll her sleeves up as it were and help turn or wash patients. There are few work shy nurses that I know of

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