Am I right to think this is a total cop out?

[spanners80]

I've posted this on the bullying forum, but I think as it's so ranty, it may sit better in here...

My DD is in year 1. We've been dealing with a group of girls, and one in particular in DD's class bullying her (and others) since the start of reception. Having been assured that it had been swiftly dealt with, we left it alone, with hushed grumblings between mums about this particular child's ongoing behaviour.

We knew this child continued to be unpleasant, but were not aware of the detais (DD just shrugged it off). I didn't push the subject as I assumed I was just being over-protective.

Finally a few weeks ago, everything blew up when a friend of my DD had enough and on witnessing her shoving DD to the ground and pulling her hair he punched this girl square in the face (I have to say I did a little internal happy dance for him, even though I know hands are not for hitting etc, but you would wouldn't you?). At school the boy got into trouble and so did DD for winding up the girl in question.

I only heard about this from the little boy's mum - the school didn't deem it important enough to let me know (grrr). So, I questioned DD and she causally explains that this child pulls her hair / calls her names / hits her on a daily basis and there's no point in telling as she gets told off for telling tales. Cue me throwing a hissy fit at the Deputy Head who assures me that she will call a staff meeting to put a stop to it.

Now I teach in a senior school and if this happened in my classroom choose your deity to help the little b**r who was caught bullying. Swift and sharp action would befall. I have no issue with calling in a parent to explain what their little darlings have been up to (that goes for good behaviour too - I'm not actually some bun toting, tweed wearing dragon... I am working on it though).

DD is in year one, where surely they should be instilling the nature of cause and effect in terms of behaviour. However, today I was informed that action was to be taken (yay!) - my daughter is to be put into a 'special' group where they will be taught 'resiliance training' (huh?). Isn't that then further singling them out for torment from the 'normals'?

Ok, maybe this may help her tell a teacher, but what is the point if no action is taken against the bullies? And at what point did we decide that 'man-up' classes were the new cop out for teacher who can't or won't manage their class's behaviour?

Ok, with the rant over, has anyone had any experience of a child being put in this training? Am I over-reacting just a smidge and if not how do I politely tell DD's school where to go with their hippy approach and actually deal with the issues in the school? I'm tempted to say just that, but I can't see me being Mrs popular after that...

phew.

'Does your daughter often wind the girl in question up?'

Oh, you can better believe I'd wind her up if she were doing all this to my kid - and the entire school, too.

This child is six, ffs.

This isn't very popular on Mumsnet but I wouldn't be telling her to not hit back.

I can see where a bit of 'resilience training' wouldn't be a bad thing, but it is up to the bully not to bully not for your daughter to have to protect herself here. But kids are like wolves, they sense weakness, seperate the weak from the pack and go in for the kill. They don't really understand how to be properly 'human' yet IMO, that has to be taught.

Still I would be telling my kid to punch her in the nose and while she would almost certainly get in trouble at school she would not be in trouble at home.*

Sometimes the school is wrong.

*And yes I think I probably did just contradict myself there. There is Morloth the rational human being who wants everyone to sit down and sort it out peacefully, then there is Morloth the mother, who wants to knock anyone who hurts my kids on their arse (even if that happens to be another kid).

How awful for you OP, your DD should not have to endure one more day of this. So what 'special group' is the bully going to be put into? I would be tempted to refuse the resilliance training on the grounds that the problem is the behaviour of the bully, not of the victim!! I would be furious, it almost sounds like the bully is being protected.

And tbh, I wouldn't harp on too much about "not hitting back" to your DD. In my day, there was only one way to stop bullies - stick up to them.

And I would be absoloutley livid about not being informed of the playground incident - how could they think you would not need to know about this?

Do you know the bully's mum? Is she aware of what is going on, have the school talked to her?

You have a right to protect your DD. Don't let them make you feel you are being "over protective" because as far as this situation is concerned, that's total bollocks.

Good luck and keep us posted.

x posted Morloth - glad you said that, thought I was going to get flamed for the not hitting back comment!

when my DS2 was being bullied in primary school, we complained to the teacher and to the head. The response was that we were told to teach him not to be a victim. When he was being bullied in secondary school, he demonstrated the lesson in not being a victim was well learned by taking the bully apart in a fight, for which he was disciplined. Schools have very ambiguous views on what constitutes bullying and will almost always take a neutral line.

Can you ask the school to put in writing what will be covered in resilience training, what the aims of the training are and how they will be acheived. At least then you will be able to decide whether you feel it is a good think for your DD.

However, even if it will be helpful for her the school needs to be dealing with the bullying too.

This is not a school community at ease with itself, clearly.
I think you need to put your basic complaint in writing to the Head Teacher a.s.a.p. and tell him or her what you expect to be done about it. For example, 'Disruptive behaviours are becoming endemic and the school's reaction is not appropriate'. You can usually do this by email. Give a reasonable turnaround time in which you expect to receive a substantive (not just a 'holding') response. You could also ask for a round table meeting with the Head and a couple of concerned parents to talk things through. This really can help.
If you are still not satisfied, the next step up is to write to the Chair of Governors c/o the School.
When you are not satisfied with this reply (and trust me, you won't be, because Chairs of Governors are usually so far up Head Teachers' arses that they can't see daylight), and assuming that this is a state school, then you can complain to the Local Authority. The person you need to contact is the council's Director of Children's Services, who is the paid head of the education service. If you want to alert the political lead as to what's going on, contact the Cabinet Member for Children's Services at the local council. These are invariably on the council's web site.
You can also find out on the council's web site who your local councillors are and ask for help in dealing with the problem.
Infant schools shouldn't be this stressful!

I was bullied as a kid - persistently and nastily, until I exploded and hammered my tormentors on two occasions - bust lips, black eyes, one broken nose, blood on the walls. Of course I was carpetted and punished for it.

The worst thing, and what I still remember, is feeling that there was NO-ONE I could talk to about the bullying. You didn't snitch, you kept a brave face for your parents, you had no friends cos you were a victim. This has actually affected me really badly since then, as I have just come to understand recently. Some parents tell their kids a Big Lie "If you ignore them, they'll go away". It's not true, and the kid hears "It's your fault and I don't want to deal with it".

Spanners you need to show your child that you are taking this really seriously, that you're on their side, that you are going to get it stopped. I know you know this already, but please, please take this to heart.

If I were you ... I would email the Head Teacher, so you have it on record that you are not satisfied with the school's policy. Ask for a meeting. Most decent Heads would be pleased to meet a parent or group of parents to try to resolve a problem. Explain you are very worried about your child, and other children, and you want assurances that all of them are being kept safe and being required to behave appropriately. (Schools love words like 'appropriately'.)

If you need to go higher up the food chain for assurances and action, your next step is to write or email the Chair of Governors via the school. Don't expect too much, as he or she will most likely ask the Head what to say back to you, rather than carry out their own independent investigation. But it is a step on the way to alerting the big guns at the Local Authority aka the Council.

The Council has two people in charge of education and children's well-being. The chief officer is the Director of Children's Services. The political lead is the Cabinet Member for Children's Services, an elected councillor. Both should be on the council's website with contact details.

You can also contact your local ward councillors and ask whether they agree with the school's policy. If more than one parent contacts them it will be more effective. (Local elections in May!)State schools are only partly independent from the Local Authority - the Council still has a role to monitor and act on what's best for local children. This includes helping any child who is acting out for reasons of unhappy home life.

I know this is all a bit 'processy' but I hope it's useful.

Sorry - didn't think eariler post got through.

Apologies for all the duplication!

Spanners - one of the ways I've dealt with it is by pointing out that I'm a teacher and could they cut the crap line they peddle to non teaching parents and tell me precisely what is going to be done about the bullying in line with Every Child matters and the anti bullying policy. I have also pointed out that I have no hesitation in escalating matters further until the matter is dealt with. This tends to work. Don't take any crap - you know how it would work in your school, explain how you expect it to work in your DDs.

I too was a secondary teacher completely baffled by the response (or lack of) at my DC's primary school to bullying in Y1 onwards.
The school might seek to cover it up, or make a weak response, and the bullying is more likely to continue and become more subversive.

Keep a written record of everything - incidents, response of teachers etc. - in as much detail as possible.

Always write down what you want to say at a meeting with staff and use your list to keep to YOUR agenda. If they make promises insist that they put these in writing. After a meeting write down all you can remember. Ask the school to confirm in writing that it is a true record of your meeting.

Always, always keep a paper trail.
Threatening to report a physical incident to the police is effective.......

I would be extremely annoyed, like you, about my dd being told essentially to 'suck it up' and get trained. No, they should stop and the school should have policies to do this, esp. at this age.

However, just because I think this seems like the wrong response to this particular situation (and likely to single your daughter out), doesn't mean I haven't talked to my two about how to deal with bullies. I think some concrete advice helps (e.g. turn round and tell them not to in no uncertain terms, coupled with a good hard stare is better than just walking away, and don't be afraid to immediately tell the teacher, esp. if physical).

In my opinion, schools are often a bit worried about upsetting volatile/chaotic families by carrying out punishments for their bullying children (hence the 'he's got problems' blah they say) and prefer to pile the guilt on the nice well-behaved children instead. That is a crap bullying policy and you should call them on it.

So.... I chatted with our safeguardig officer and the letter that hits the headteachers desk tomorrow goes:

Dear Mrs Headteacher (names removed to protect the innocentish),

Following on from the meeting held between myself and Mrs Deputy Head I am writing to highlight several major concerns.

The long term instance of bullying behavior which was first brought up with Mrs Reception Teacher in Early Years continues to be an issue. Having been assured in Early Years that this matter had been dealt with I was horrified to hear that DD continues to have issues with this child. Although we were aware of a general animosity between the two, we were not aware of the extent to which the behavior had extended.

Firstly, I take issue with the fact that multiple incidents have occurred involving She-who-must-not-be-named and DD and the school have not informed me. I am aware that due to work commitments I am not available after school, however as every child has a PACT book, I would assume that information can be sent home through this medium. I would certainly rather hear direct from the school instead of indirectly from other parents and other children.

My second issue is with the stance that the school has taken on dealing with this issue. Once again, no information was openly conveyed to us by the school, instead I had to ask Mrs Yr1 Teacher, who was busy with several children in the playground as to what action was being taken. This was a full week after my original meeting with Mrs Deputy Head.

It would seem that the school?s answer to its issue of bullying is to initiate resilience training. Having investigated this further apart from ensuring no further complaints from the victims of bullying are received, this serves little purpose in actually dealing with the behaviour. An intrinsic part of the Every Child Matters legislation is that ?it is compulsory for schools to have measures in place to encourage good behaviour and respect for others on the part of pupils, and to prevent all forms of bullying?. Where the emphasis is being placed upon the child who is bullied to deal with the offending behaviour the school is clearly failing not only the bullied child, but also the young person whose behaviour remains unchecked.

One of the five measures of ECM is ?Stay Safe? with a statement that children will be ?Safe from bullying and discrimination?. This is clearly not the case in an environment where pupils are taught that they should change the way they act in order to fend off bullying behaviour.

The school has a duty of care to all of the children, and here I include those whose behavior is clearly unacceptable. While the effects of bullying have been quite clear from a personal perspective, having watched a once confident and outspoken child become reluctant to discuss any matter relating to school and internalize issues, the children within the school whose behavior appears to be set aside will continue to learn nothing from the behavior until either the age of criminal responsibility is reached or they pick on a child who does not hold their temper as easily. Neither situation is desirable for the long term benefit of the individual.

While I have no issue whatsoever in the children looking at practice that will increase self-esteem, I do take issue with children being singled out for this. What I would like to see in order to resolve this issue is an open and formal discussion between all the adults concerned ? by this I would include myself and my husband, the school and She-who-must-not-be-named?s parents in order that we may formulate an action plan where support is agreed and all parties are aware of any action being taken by the school. In this way, the children can be presented with a united front rather than matters being dealt with ?in-house? and escalating further.

Sincerely.

Mrs Spanners

Copy to Chair of Governors?

Good letter. Constructive, well-researched, ends with a reccomendation. Good for you. DD knows you've sent it, I take it?

I shouldn't say this - I wish you'd been my mum 30 years ago.

Only just seen this thread, but fab letter! Your poor DD. WE had similar when DS was in year 5 and we ended up moving school as they just would not accept that this child was a problem.

I really hope this gets you somewhere.

I am disgusted with this story! How very dare the school treat your daughter to take bullying without complaining so much!!

I think as well as resilience training, you need to talk your daughter through the fact that if she feels physically threatened again, that she should punch the other girl in the nose. Yes, she may get into trouble, but the other child will know she is serious about fighting back (what Morloth said about wolves) and will also look a bit silly with a bloody nose. She can't say she will hit her unless she is prepared to though.

Go with the letter - but fwiw, I think you can go so far with the walking away, saying you don't like it, hard stares etc, but there comes a point where hitting back is the only option (last resort). And you may find that if it goes no where with the Head Teacher route, that this last resort is where you will find yourself.

Good luck!

No time, so only read your original post (yes so sorry, know it's bad form). So sorry if you have covered.

Firstly YANBU to be very concerned. One thing however, whilst your daughter may have been put into resilience training (might be useful) have you considered that the bully may also be going through some form of 'training' to stop this happening? Just a thought, but I would be speaking to the school to say that I would accept DD in 'training' as long as I was told that the was action being taken to adjust the other child's behaviour. You don't need to know the details but you do need to know it is not being swept under the carpet. Also I would ask to know the contents, outcomes etc. of the training.

I work at a primary school too and the 'training' may be to show your DD how to walk away etc. (this can be difficult to understand/know in year 1) But I know my school would be dealing severely with the other child too. The other bit that concerns me is that your DD has felt she cannot go to a teacher for fear of telling tales. You need to know the school is supporting your daughter and this course is not seen as a punishment/rectifying her behaviour but something that will be beneficial to her, not because she has done anything wrong. Sorry for waffle, rushed but didn't want to read and run.

YEAR 1???? Hells teeth - this girl is 6!! She needs to be sorted out now or things are only going to get worse. I think that banding together with the parents of other victims is a great idea. Strength in numbers and if this child is making so many lives a misery, she has to be dealt with - not your poor child! When you said that your child was going to be offered man up lessons I nearly spat tacks! Good luck with confronting the head en masse. Keep us posted?

Jesus - why do some people expect children to deal with physical and mental punishment that adults would never be told to deal with.
Can ou imagine being puched and kicked and having your suff stolen at work every day nd your boss telling you to 'stop elling tales' and just learn to deal with it', whilst not rretaliating of course!!

I advised my daughter to 'walk away'. The bullies (2 girls) used this to turn on crocodile tears, complain sweetly to staff that DD was being nasty to them and she was forced time and time again to apologise to them. But if she had retaliated physically it would have been disastrous because she was being painted as the bully by these tactics. Of course, her understandable sense of injustice meant that she had no trust or respect whatsoever for the staff who were being fooled like this and so she must have appeared surly.
Catch 22.

You always find out about these 'incidents' after the fact and the school just shrugs them off so, I repeat, keep detailed notes. The sheer weight of evidence mounts up.

Girl bullying is particularly nasty, pernicious and difficult to detect.

DD bounced with happiness after we moved her to a different primary school but, even through to Y13, she never again would trust a weak teacher.

Lots of good advice here. Might be helpful, too, if you were to include in your letter: 'I know several other parents have heard via their children about ....'s bullying behaviour. I have their permission to give their names; they are.... (x's parent) .....(y's parent) and ......(z's parent.)'
The little Galahad who stuck up for your daughter would be x (or y, or z.)