to think that anynoe who believes in star signs is a complete numpty?

[bettybosseye]

I mean it's so clearly such a great stinking heap of horse shit, how can anyone actually believe it?
Another mum at playgroup today was telling me what kind of personality my 9 month old will have based solely on her star sign.
All pleasant enough stuff but she actually believed it.
What's wrong with people?

Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" debunks astrology in a pretty irretrievable manner. From memory:

Astrology only looks at celestial bodies known to Ptolemy, and completely disregards those discovered through modern astronomy in the last 1800 years or so.

It ignores the asteroid belt and satellites within our solar system, not to mention myriad others outside it.

It disregards atmospheric refraction, which means objects are not where you think they are, with the distortion increasing closer to the horizon. Even Ptolemy knew about this so really, there is no excuse.

Astrology also ignores precession of the equinoxes, which Ptolemy also wrote about.

So even if celestial bodies affect our character and future events (and there is no evidence that they do), astrology goes about charting these so-called influences in a completely wrong way.

The honourable to exception to that which is classified as a religion is Buddhism. But they're athiests.

I think that horoscopes in the newspaper and people who think the alignment of the stars and planets can impact on the minute (sp?) of our lives are talking crap because while I think it can give an indication, I think free will over rides any such 'predictive' capabilities.

Although saying that, I have a book which asks questions about your childs personality and behavior - based on points scored for yes, no and sometimes answers, it assigns either a Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde personality type in relation to their star sign and then goes on to describe them in detail, along with suggestions about what subjects they will be most interested in at school and possible careers.

Loads of people have borrowed this book and everyone single one was surprised by the accuracy. I don't think anyone took it particularly seriously though - tis just a bit of fun.

However, I do not fully discount astrology because I don't think we can fully understand what, if any, influence the universe has on our world (physical as well as metaphysical).

We know that the moon physically impacts on both the planet (tides) and life (menstrual cycle)due to magnetic forces and light etc, so to discount the fact that the other planets and stars may also exert some kind of influence just because nothing has yet been proven seems a bit, well, narrow minded.

It's like acupuncture - 20 years ago, the west thought that was all a bit woo - since then, it has been proven to help some types of pain and nausea and while scientists generally think that it is a placebo affect for other ailments, the general consensus at the moment from the scientific community is "that it needs more research", which is the scientific way of saying "we are keeping an open mind".

Who is to say, that in 20 years time, someone won't have discovered some kind of provable affect of the planets? Particularly with all of the work going on at the LHC re: dark matter etc.

600 years ago astrology and astronomy were the same thing - belief that the stars could tell us something led to the development of celestial navigation, the discovery of the solar system and the understanding that the earth is round and not flat. Knowledge is cyclical, we are now relearning things that were taken for granted by earlier civilizations but have long since been forgotten - who is to say whether that will eventually include things we currently dismiss as woo?

People who let it rule their lives come across as a little weird (but then so do people who are religiously devout - to me anyway), but equally people who totally dismiss things also seem a bit odd. There is nothing wrong with keeping and open mind.

Hmmm to post or not to post... feck it. Here are my two pence worth.

I don't believe in horoscopes however I do belive in other things like fortune telling ect and some people would sya im nuts.

However, the way I see it, it is like a faith to some people, some people live their lives by it. It does no harm, in fact it does a lot less harm than religeous wars and fighting and no body would get away withsaying that people are dim to beleive in their religeon.

It's a case of let people be, some people feel different things and believe differnt things, they aren't hurting anyone so why take the piss?

lenak - I'm afraid your post proves the OP's point.

"We know that the moon physically impacts on both the planet (tides) and life (menstrual cycle)due to magnetic forces and light etc, so to discount the fact that the other planets and stars may also exert some kind of influence just because nothing has yet been proven seems a bit, well, narrow minded."

Yes, the moon affects the tides. And the phases of the moon seems linked to some animal behaviours. Although I'm not sure there has ever been any firm link between the menstrual cycle and the moon - given that many other mammals have menstrual cycles that are nowhere near 28 days, and that 28 days is only an average anyway, that seems more of a curious coincidence than anything else.

But the moon is big enough and close enough for its gravitational effects to be apparent. But if you're standing in London, Neptune's gravitational influence on you will be less than that generated by Mount Snowdon. So I find it hard to believe that tidal forces have anything to do with it.

I'm all for keeping an open mind, but you do need to be careful that your mind isn't left so open that you risk having your brains fall out.

hee hee

I suspect that the basis of astrology could be that there was some observation of real seasonal effects but then the wrong conclusion was drawn - as is too often the case with correlations with time. Just because two things may happen each spring does not automatically imply that A causes B.

So, I think that what I have learned regarding astral charts (what time and where born)is that if my children have any negative personality traits they can blame that on me for my choice of hospital to have them in. My perception that Winchester looks better than Southampton on a passport may have doomed them to fail! Sorry kids, your personalities are all written in the stars and have nothing to do with our parenting skills or life experiences

Too many "but"s in my last post

As for acupuncture, I'm not sure it has been proven effective for anything. There was a single trial that suggested that acupuncture was marginally more effective than placebo for lower back pain but (if memory serves) that same trial also suggested that sham acupuncture - just prodding someone with a cocktail stick - was equally as "effective" as the real thing. That's hardly a ringing endorsement.

I do love the way that the woo crowd always jump on the latest scientific theories as offering potential for proving their favourite crackpot theories - dark matter, string theory, quantum mechanics, zero-point energy, they've all been exploited by woo merchants - while studiously ignoring the mountains of existing scientific data that shows the woo to be utter bollocks.

Shakespeare hit the nail on the head centuries ago: "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars but in ourselves, that we are underlings"

I was shocked to hear on radio 2 people ringing in for advice based on their stars, people actually make business decisions based on this, one guy was ringning again to see if things would get better with his business, he had been 'told' on the show a year earlier to take the business and it wasn't working.

I don't see how star signs can say if marriages will be happy, houses will sell etc.

' It was him to an absolute T - a blueprint of his character. DH read it, went quiet and could only muster up a "bloody hell, that's weird."'

Not weird at all! I don't think that it should work, I haven't a clue why it works. I only had one done as a favour to a friend and it was uncanny. I went on to look into it myself and any astrologer would read the same thing into it.Twins have certain traits the same and differences, 2 minutes is enough to put a planet in a different house. The difference between being born in Winchester and Southampton is negligible, being born in Australia would make a huge difference.
I agree totally that it should be utter rubbish, but it works to my satisfaction (but you do have to disregard sun sign astrology-I never ever read them).

Although I'm not sure there has ever been any firm link between the menstrual cycle and the moon - given that many other mammals have menstrual cycles that are nowhere near 28 days, and that 28 days is only an average anyway, that seems more of a curious coincidence than anything else.

Maybe - but....

There have been a number of studies which have shown that artificial light at night can impact on menstrual cycles and fertility:

here and here. It doesn't seem to me to be a massive leap to say that if artificial light can have an impact then natural light can too and given the moon is generally the brightest thing in the night sky.....

There have also been some studies which show that Lemur reproduction is linked to the moon.

Lots of people do use it like that minipen, I would do what I intended anyway but it is nice to know if a house sale is likely to be straight forward or beset by problems.

Lamorna, if 2 minutes is enough to put a twin into a different house then having DS2 in Southampton may therefore (if you are correct) have made a huge difference to his personality as he was induced. He could easily have been born 6 hours earlier or later etc.. I just cannot possibly believe that this could impact on his personality and therefore his future. I would still have parented him in the same way, we would still be living where we are living now etc...

How does this effect those who are born on planes going at 300 kph+?

As I said, I know there are links between the phases of the moon and certain animal behaviours. The moon can indeed be very bright in the night sky.

But that's a long long way - both literally and figuratively - from the rest of the planets. Mars and Venus sometimes show up brightly in the night sky and Jupiter too on occasion but Mercury? Neptune? Saturn? They're barely visible even if you know where to look and when.

You're not seriously suggesting that the tiny amount of light that those planets cast will have the same kind of effects that the light from the moon will, are you?

Use to think it was a lot of hooey until January 24th 2001. Horoscope in diary free with Marie Claire said You will be stepping out into the limelight.

Humph! That was the day I fell in the snow, broke a leg and suddenly became something for my work colleagues to ooh and aah over.

I thought I would be able to let go of lenak?s post, but its content ignorance and take on ?narrow minded? non-believers is killing me. So here it goes.

?people have borrowed this book and everyone single one was surprised by the accuracy?

Because of selective perception and our talent for pattern recognition. In other words, people recognize the bits that seem relevant and disregard the rest, especially if they want to believe, like anyone who would read a book on their children?s star signs in the first place.

In the same book I told about earlier, Carl Sagan also tells of an experiment: ?Free horoscopes cast, just send your details? says a newspaper ad. Many people answer and get their horoscopes. After a while, they are asked if it was good for them. The vast majority said they were impressed, it was great, etc. They were all sent the same horoscope, that of a serial killer in prison with XYY syndrome.

?because I don't think we can fully understand influence the universe has on our world (physical as well as metaphysical).?

1 Our world is part of the universe
2 There is no such thing as a ?metaphysical world?
3 You would be able to understand the universe, if you read scientific books rather than numpty literature on astrological career advice for your children

?We know that the moon physically impacts on both the planet (tides) ... due to magnetic forces and light etc?

Tides are due to moon?s gravity, you dingbat. Moon doesn?t have a rotating metal inner core like the earth so no significant magnetic field of its own. What little magnetic properties it has are due to its passing through the earth?s magnetic field.

?to discount the fact that the other planets and stars exert influence ... seems a bit, well, narrow minded?

There is no such ?fact?, except the gravitational pull that all objects exert on each other depending on their mass and distance. This pull does not determine character traits of babies at the moment of their birth and it is categorically numptastic to believe that it does.

?acupuncture ... proven to help some types of pain and nausea and while scientists generally think that it is a placebo affect?

You know that acupuncture is proven to be no better than placebo and you think that is a good thing? Woman, is there no limit to your ignorance? This means it has no effect except in the mind of its believers. You might as well pray for the pain to go away.

?Knowledge is cyclical?

That has to be one of the top five most ridiculous statements ever on MN, and that is against some competition. Like, all we learned about the world and the universe in the past 100 years was already known? Because, what, some stargazer shaman told you so?

?There is nothing with keeping and open mind?

Just not so open that wind blows through it.

In other words, you need knowledge and understanding of what is already known before you can judge whether or not any new theory is credible or crackpot. Because you lack the basic knowledge and understanding, everything looks equally credible to you. That is not a good thing, regardless of how you kid yourself about having such an ?open mind?

Remember Derren Brown giving people their "psychological profiles", which they all read and thought "Blimey, that's me to a T" ? And they were all the same. That's horoscopes for you!

"Today, you will have an unexpected encounter and Venus passing through your sign means that love matters are on your mind. Be sure to prioritise, as work tasks may start to prey on your mind!"

I wrote that in about 10 seconds. Any numpty could do it!

CotedAzure - than you, you saved my typing fingers!

The Derren Brown programmes are amazing. Even when he shows people that they are dealing with a charalatan they still believe.

I think the principles of cold reading should be taught in school. Much more useful than compulsory RE. (bitter clenched teeth emoticon)

I've just googled 'Knowledge is Cyclical" and the most common meanings seem to be

a) A technical Knowledge Managament term for feeding back experience into the system
b)The propensity of Financial Markets to forget about busts during booms.